for those of you that think it's ok to wakeskate during the rehab of your injury, whether it's a knee injury or somethin' else, please take notice. you can still get hurt. <BR> <BR>murray blew every ligament in his knee wakeskating. he went wake-to-wake...landed w/ 1 foot on and 1 foot off. went under the knife last friday. <BR> <BR>here's to a speedy recovery for shaun.

I'll toast to the speedy recovery!

for those of you that think it's ok to wakeskate during the rehab of your injury, whether it's a knee injury or somethin' else, please take notice. you can still get hurt. <BR> <BR>Dammmmmm. I thought that the wakeskating was going to cut down on the injurys at least thats what I thought. I knew its not as safe as sitting on the couch but <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font>. <BR> <BR>That sucks <BR>

My friend Rick had the board hit him in the face. He ended up with stitches.

wakeskating is how I messed up my knee (ACL only tho) had knee surgery about a month ago and am rock'n the PT stuff now. I'm sure anyone who has knee surgery will tell you that the first 2-3 weeks after surgery is the most excrutiating pain ever, and there is nothing you can do but sit and bear the pain. Shaun, here's to a speedy recovery and minimal pain. Good luck in PT.

out last saturday 1st pull of the day.my buddy broke his leg,on a wakeskate, got pins and screws on monday. driver paniced and ran over the rope. had to cut a brand new rope.it sucked!

Bottom line for me and my family: knee braces and a helmet are required gear for wakeboarding. My son complains, I tell him to get longer boardshorts. Football players don't return kickoffs without a helmet! Can't tell me they don't work-- the pros with knee injuries wear them. Sorry to hear about Murray. Man, every ligament, that's tough beyond description.

Fisher, I hope you are reading this! <BR> <BR>

Steven Cowen...you make them wear 2 knee braces??? I see most of the pros wearing one normally on the most recently injured knee or the knee giving them trouble. Wearing 2 braces would rub together and would seem kind of hard to have any mobility.

knee braces really aren't necessary unless you have weak hamstrings and quads, really the best way to prevent injury is to hit the gym and really focus on strengthening your knees. I would think that by wearing a brace when you don't need to would make you more dependent on them and actually have an adverse affect and weaken your knees... I dunno, I could be wrong.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>knee braces really aren't necessary unless you have weak hamstrings and quads, really the best way to prevent injury is to hit the gym and really focus on strengthening your knees. I would think that by wearing a brace when you don't need to would make you more dependent on them and actually have an adverse affect and weaken your knees... I dunno, I could be wrong.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>Nope you're right. At least that's what the doctors have told me over the years.

you could actually be setting them up for injury. If you want to prevent, make sure they exercise.

Bess, how's you knee doing? What are you doing in PT?

Knee brace technology is based on science that is widely accepted by medical professionals across a broad range of amatuer and professional sports. But its snake oil? Is that what I am hearing? <BR> <BR>Danny Harf blew out his ACL, but finished the season wearing a brace, and he still does; as does Parks and Shane. Bad medical advice? Unnecessary treatments? <BR> <BR>Charley Patterson rides with braces on both knees. The dude's ripped. But what he really needs is to do lower body work? Or are you saying he's mentally weak and needs the braces as a psychological crutch? <BR> <BR>I know more people with blown knees and broken bones from wakeboarding than I know who can land simple heelside backrolls. I'm playing the odds, especially since besides aesthetics, quality knee braces have no negatives. <BR> <BR>Sorry, I just gotta respectfully disagree. On this subject the greatest of all American poets, Bob Dylan says it best: "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."

Damn Steven, I never seen someone pull more musical quotes out of their hat than you. You must of thrown out at least 10 of them in the reef girls thread.

Steven E. Cowen, you can use any completely irrelevant quote from Dylan you want, the point being, your kids will not develop the kind of muscle needed to withstand riding. They will always have to wear knee braces. All the riders you have mentioned in your posts, besides Charley Patterson, are only wearing braces on the knees that are injured. Yes, knee brace technology is based on science that is widely accepted, nobody disagrees with you on this subject. Point being, you don't see professional athletes in other sports wearing unnecessary braces. It's like the guys who still go to the gym and do squats with belts or shoulder shrugs with wraps...yeah you think it's safer, but your neglecting important and necessary muscle development. <BR> <BR>Oh yeah...I think it was Neil Young who said, "It's better to burn out than to fade away".

Damn Schmitz you took the words right out of my mouth. <BR> <BR>My point was you shouldn't become dependent on them. <BR> <BR>Let's use this scenario as an example: <BR> <BR>You wear knee braces wakeboarding 100 percent of the time. These braces slow the lateral movement (a little) and keep you from locking your knees out (cause of most injuries; correct me if I'm wrong) <BR> <BR>So the kid goes skateboarding, BMX'ing or what ever with no knee braces (unless you make them wear them all the time) and they bail out and land straight legged. They have been relying on their braces for so long that their instincts (not necessarily on purpose) is to rely on the brace. Next thing you know... pop, there goes the knee. <BR> <BR>It seems to me that if your muscles aren't trained to prevent your body parts from moving the wrong way, you are making yourself vulnerable to injury. <BR> <BR>I don't disagree with you entirely, but that's just my opinion.

"They have been relying on their braces for so long that their instincts (not necessarily on purpose) is to rely on the brace. Next thing you know... pop, there goes the knee." <BR> <BR>Exactly! <BR> <BR>Training is the answer. Not braces. Again: you could actually be setting them up for injury.

Any one of my son's jumps could end with a ruptured ligament. Risk level: high. <BR> <BR>A brace will decrease the risk level. Fall with brace-- get up. Without: surgery. <BR> <BR>But are there negatives? I hear you all. My sense, though, is that a normal, active kid will develop enough muscle strength to decrease the risk level for skateboarding, a sport that does not generate knee shredding forces as routinely, to the low/medium range. Wakeboarding will not decrease that strength. <BR> <BR>No guarantees, I understand. My goal is to try and decrease the risk level and the odds of injury. <BR> <BR>BTW: son informs me he'll only wear a brace when practicing inverts, or other high force generating moves!

I understand, just be careful. <BR> <BR>Here are a few injuries I have witnessed: <BR> <BR>-Blown ACL on a wakejump on a small wake <BR> <BR>-Snapped Tib/Fib on a flailed wakejump <BR> <BR>-Broken Patellar thingy (Can't remember but it happened to Christy) on a wakejump <BR> <BR>It can happen doing anything...

Steven, most of the pros wear braces recently after a surgery/injury, once they are back to full strngeth they ditch the brace, my doc said that if I were to be riding now (which he highly recomended I didn't do)that I would need a brace, but if I were to go and ride when I have 90% of my srength back, it wouldn't be worth the thousand dollars to wear the brace cause my knees will be strnger than before I messed them up. If you really want to decrease your kids risk of injury, get them a membership to a gym and just do simple stuff, they don't need to be jacked or anything, just strengthen the hamstrings. Most people don't use their hamstrings on a regular basis therefore they are much weaker and as a result there are such high numbers of ACL tears. <BR> <BR>Canaday <BR> PT is awesome, I'm loving it right now, I've got full extension and am working on flexion, I got to 111 on Monday so.. I still have a ways to go. We're do'n some ufn balance stuff using a Baps board, balance board, that squishy gel thing that you stond on and balance with one leg then you play catch with yourself using a medicine ball and a trampoline while balancing. Its pretty fun. They also have me on a couple of the machines, the leg press (one leg up and down), leg curls (one leg up with little assitance from my other leg, and one leg down). And a whole bunch of other fun stuff. thanx for asking, overall its going pretty well.

it was actually kurt cobain who said it was better to burn out then to fade away...

Are you sure? I could have sworn it was Sum 41 or one of those bands that invented punk a couple years back.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>-Broken Patellar thingy (Can't remember but it happened to Christy) on a wakejump<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>i think it was a fractured tibia plateau (sp?)...same exact injury that my friend sustained back in 2000.

shaun murray here using my dads account cuz I can't remember mine... <BR> <BR>first off, it must have been aristotle or someone similar who said "it is better to burn out than fade away". I hear what the quote is trying to say, but who wants to become burnt out? Not me. My quote would have to along the lines..."it is better to walk away than fade away" anyway, thats not what we're talking about, knee braces and the pros and cons of em. <BR>I have a CTI knee brace and after going through the pain of snappin every ligament in my knee, getting cut into for 2 and a half hours, two days in the hospital, and getting ready to start the long painful process of Physical Therapy...im gonna have to say That I will be putting on my knee brace, at least for a while. The doctor has told me that my knee with be stronger than it was but yes a security blanket does sure feel warm and cuddly sometimes. <BR>As far as people wearin em even without knee probs, just make sure you wear them all the time. My uneducated guess is that your body being bound in certain places does allow some ligaments to relax, but I really don't know. is there a doctor in the house? Shaun

that's what I heard too... if you wear a brace without knee problem, it'll weaken the knee and you'll have more chance of tearing ligaments when you'll forget to wear it... and no, riding with a brace wont keep you away from knee injury... no braces can replace torn ligaments... it can protect on certain types of falls but if you crash hard, you'll blow your knee up anyway... I've riden my snowboard with my brace on before surgery and it didn't feel comfortable at all... I really felt it didn't replace my torn ligament... <BR>this is my first summer of riding one year after surgery and hope to part with mine for next summer... my knee really feel strong again and I'm getting more and more confident... for sure the first time I'll get it off riding I wont go all out... just go slowly and see how things feel... I plan on doing a lot of balance exercices during the winter to strenghten all the little muscles that aren't used when using a brace... I already have started running, mt. biking, surfing and longboard skateboarding without the brace and feels pretty good... <BR>I'm sorry to hear about your injury Shaun... I can imagine how much you like being on the water teaching kids and having a good session for yourself from time to time... hope you'll be back into it really fast... this kind of fall hapened to me one time and let me tell you I got pretty scared... my knee was already in bad shape at that time... I assume I got lucky this time...

Yes, Joe. Mine was a fractured tibial plateau, but I have to say that a "broken pateller thingy" sounds much less painful...haha...j/k Blabelmooch! <BR> <BR>I can honestly say that after a 2.5 hour painful surgery, several months of PT and a second surgery now scheduled for next week, I will probably not get in the water without a knee brace on. However, it will only be on the injured leg.

Shaun, I don't know if you can answer this: would you have been injured had you been wearing a brace? Would the injury have been "less" severe? <BR> <BR>Bess/Jarod, I'm not an expert but this is my "sense": the strongest knee and the strongest hamstring are just not strong enough to withstand the forces routinely generated in wakeboarding mishaps. Hence, additional "structure" is necessary. This is my "hypothesis" if you will. <BR> <BR>I analogize it to NASCAR. The driver's neck is not strong enough, no matter how strong the driver is, to withstand the force generated in a crash. Hence, the "halo" device, I think it's called. Again, I'm not a doctor; just going on personal opinion. <BR> <BR>Agree with Shaun, on the need for a medical professional. Or as that dead poet, Robert Palmer, said "Doctor, doctor, give me the news . . .!" Sorry Shawn W., I was antisocial as a kid and the radio was my only friend!

Curt Cobain put "better to burn out, than to fade away" into his suicide note, but Neil Young had that lyric in "Hey Hey My My" years before. Cobain liked Young's music so I'd bet a lot he got it from that song.

Air besar - do you mean Courtney's suicide note? <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/wink.gif" border=0> <BR> <BR>No problem Steven, I find it kind of amusing. <img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0>

You think!

Jason wears a CTI brace after he completely tore his ACL two years ago. From what I understand, the CTI brace will help prevent injury (notice I did not say WILL PREVENT). Isn’t there some kind of mechanism built into the brace that prevents the leg from hyper extending? <BR> <BR>

yes... that's the main point of wearing one... prevent the hyperextension... well at least mine does (DonJoy)...

I think that is what braces are for, preventing injuries. However, I agree with everybody that says it weakens your knee/ankle or whatever you are wearing a brace on. I sprained my ankle pretty bad on the 3rd this month and the doctor told me to wear a brace. I did for a few days but found that the brace caused me more problems than helped me. Everytime I would take it off it seemed as if my ankle was weaker because I had been relying on the brace for support. I stopped wearing it and my ankle seemed to heal up a little better because I was using it and actually building the strength back up.

I tore my ACL/MCL/Meniscus 8 years ago and have never worn a brace. College football, baseball, wakeboarding, no brace. Best prevention, hit the gym and strengthen the muscles correctly, stretch.

For the record, I wore my brace for about a season after returning from an exploded ACL, which was about 9 months post op. You have to dedicate yourself to the PT, and stay on track for having your knee at 100% 1 year after your surgery. Once you get to that point, and get a little riding back under your belt, the brace becomes more of a mental thing than a physical need thing. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by craiger on July 29, 2004)

to answer the question..."would i have been injured as severly with a brace?" i surely would have been better off, but the force would have moved to my groin and tore the crud outta that. when it comes down to it, if i could do the splits, which I am far from, I would not be injured. So stretching and being flexible, in my opinion, is super important. It won't always prevent knee injuries, but will certainly help in a lot of other high impact crashes. shaun murray

You could have atleast been able to ask for groin messages if you would have torn it. Sucks it was your knee.

I played fastpitch softball for 25 years. During those years of playing, my right knee got injured often. Nothing serious, (fluid build-up, swelling) but their was usually alot of pain. In the latter part of my playing days, a doctor i went to fixed my problem through exercise. Years of favoring my knee when it hurt had actually weakened it. Once I started to do the exercises he prescribed and stopped limping when it hurt, my knee problems eventually went away. The point is that strengthening your knees with exercise is great preventive medicine.

I can't believe I'm going to jump into this...... <BR>Anyhow Bracing a joint for any level of play may help prevent further injury or lessen the degree of potential injury. BUT you also need to understand that the outcome may be an injury to the areas above and below the Braced joint.....which may or may not be worse. <BR>The other thing that many of you also need to understand that besides strengthening and flexibility is something call Proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation ( aka PNF). It's all part of retraining your injured body part to work with your mind and coordination. It's the best explanation I can give without writing out a long drawn out thesis.......<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/rofl.gif" border=0>

I broke my tibia and fibula in June, snapped right above the bindings as the board went one way and my body went another way on a landing. In the past 2 weeks had two friends also have serious water sports accidents, torn ACL/MCL and broken femur. What's with this summer?? Here's to ALL of us healing quickly and the rest of you staying in one piece!!!!! <BR><img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65919/182747.jpg" alt="X-ray of leg">

Sounds like we need some healty rehab competition. I had surgery on July 23rd, torn ACL which happened on a normal heelside 180 that I over-rotated and landed with my back to the boat and my left binding came loose. The board snapped away from me against my right leg forcing my knee inward. Doc said there was extensive damage to the cartilage that they cleaned up as well (no mention of the meniscus so I assume it was the other cartilage (not sure what it was called)). <BR> <BR>I partly blame it on the fact that when I was out riding, I was out of binding lube so I used some tanning oil my girlfriend had brought out. I started to like it when practicing my inverts since I would normally fall out of my bindings every time anyway, this made them easier to get into while I was in the water. I think that had a lot to do with how easily one of my feet came loose on doing just a normal heelside 180. <BR> <BR>Anyhow. Im 18 days post op and now have 118 degrees flexion. Was completely off crutches in 10 days. <BR> <BR>Im a very competitive person but have slacked off on my PT recently now that I can walk. Maybe some of you who seem to have also had recent surgeries can help push me along. <BR> <BR>As far as the braces go, Im trying to get one of the CTI Vapor braces if insurance will cover most of it. Anyone have any opinion on the Vapor, thats what the CTI rep is recommending. I dont care what you guys say about braces not being worthwhile, I lift enough to keep my muscles strong, its that quick snap and jerking of the knees on the wipeouts that I want to reduce. <BR> <BR>BTW, I was wearing an OTC soft knee brace for ligament support when the injury occurred because I was already feeling pain in that knee (possible tendonitis the doc said). <BR> <BR>My 2cents, <BR>Mike

Hey shaun AKA "lloyd" murry. Best of luck on the recovery. Too bad I didn't read this note before going on vacation. I did the same thing on a wakeskate July 28th. <BR> <BR>I ended up tearing my MCL, ACL, PCL, Meniscus and doing some serious bone bruising while doing a wake to wake on the skate. <BR> <BR>Just wondering how the surgury and recovery is going? I'll probably heading in for surgury within the next few weeks. The Doc wanted me to get my range on motion and strength back before surgury. <BR> <BR>Also I've got a fitting for a Donjoy defiance brace next week. Just wondering which brace would be better CTI2 or the Donjoy?

i'm a huge fan of trianing the muscles around the high risk areas...this should help support the weaker joints and legiments,like shaun "llyod" murray said in his earlier thread, even if he was wearing a knee brace at the time of his injury he would have blowout his grion... <BR> <BR>i did the same thing a few mondays ago going wake to wake on '80 feet of line, i landed in the flats with one leg on and one off...did the hurderlers stretch and put my head past my knee and kissed my arse goodbye for 4 weeks!!! <BR> <BR>i tore my hamstring and a bunch of connecting muscles, to the point of not being able to walk, as soon as it happened my leg went numb and i thought i broke my femer... <BR> <BR>my injury doesn't require surgrey, but the rehab, ultra sound and electro stim, has all been very painful and time consumming, <BR> <BR>BTW (shaun, i'm the guy who did the host annoucing @ the x games last year and this year, i'm also the guy who spent the day with you back in the spring of 2000 with tony smith and Chase heavner back when i worked for bluetorch,at your house! i'm also the guy who sent you thank you's for riding in the ride and slide events we did w/bluetorch, i also did some bar hopping with and smith, and the attention d. crew a few times back when i worked for Alliance. everytime i see you these last few years, its seems like we have never met, whats up with that?) <BR> <BR>anyways, wakeskates are just as risky if not more than wakeboarding in my opinion... <BR> <BR>but, i love it just the same! <BR> <BR>

ya Murray blew it out a week B4 we went to his camp. Travis Moye had to work real hard the last couple of weeks. Shaun couldn't walk but he still showed up and coached us. He is one hell of a cool guy.

pete, i tried to send you a private message, since there's no email address listed in your profile. but, that didn't work! <BR> <BR>email me. thanks! <BR> <BR><a href="mailto:joe@wakepics.com">joe@wakepics.com</a>

Steve.... how did you break your leg like that. What trick were u trying??

Neil Young Rust Never Sleeps was the first to pen its better to burn out then fade away.Excercise is the BEST way to prevent injuries.

The 80's sensation from England "Def Leopard" popularized "it's better to burn out than fade away" the most with "Pyromania". They also said "one arm to drum is better than none." <BR> <BR>Neil Young invented the phrase while Lynyrd Skynyrd had him in a head lock. <BR> <BR>

"a southern man don't need him around any how"

Yep, and I hope Niel Young will remember, a southern man don't need him around anyhow.

I was trying an off-axis toeside 360 and hit the wake wierd, throwing me WAY off balance. I came down with the board out in front of me, the right end of the board hit the water pushing the left end forward, but my body weight pulled me down behind the board. I think the board wanting my leg to go one way and my body wanting it to go the other, with the stiffness of the bindings, made it snap in two (plus pieces). Just got the OK from orthpedic to put 30% body weight on it and so far so good. Hopefully off the crutches in 3-4 more weeks (16-17 total). James Harvey (Aug 19 note) was the one who unbolted me off my board, then goes and hurts himself so he could get a radio controlled X-Star boat like I did.

how well do those X-Star boats work i was thinking of getting one

they work much better than the old one I had. Move pretty good and turn tight. I can almost do a figure eight in my 12' diameter pool. Too bad they don't have a little wakeboarder that gets pulled behind the boat!

Hey Steve... I think my x-star is faster than your x-star! How about a race.

Bring it on!!!!! <BR> <BR>I think we should get them going in the Health Center pool!!! Set up some bouys to go around.

hell ya get him back on a board <BR>