East Tennessee's largest newspaper, the <i>Knoxville News-Sentinel</i>, had a story today about Mastercraft. The company laid off 110 workers "effective immediately," with no severance. Both production and admin jobs were cut. With this layoff and previous ones (for example, another 56 were let go last month), the work force will be down to 200, compared to 570 "last year." <BR> <BR>John Dorton attributed the problem to a collapse in wholesale credit for dealer floorplan financing. He said there used to be five companies offering this service nationally, but now it's down to one. He said this "atomic bomb" hurts because about 80% of boat sales are to dealers who rely on this financing. <BR> <BR>Dorton said the 2008 model was "a record year" for Mastercraft. They were building 20 boats a day (from the article, it appears he was talking about the period of 7/1/2007 through 6/30/2008). Dorton said production will be at five boats a day "starting Monday," which he says "still makes [Mastercraft] one of the industry's highest volume manufacturers; it's just terrible out there." Dorton said that MC "is hoping that warmer weather this spring will spur boat sales." <BR> <BR>Note: The article didn't say anything about what another person in the industry told me -- the remaining employees are having their salaries cut 20% to 40%, "take it or leave it."

im not hating when i say this, but does it say much when you are producing 20 boats a day and they arent selling 20 boats a day? Doesnt really sound like bragging rights when those boats are now sitting in lots still in shrink wrap not being sold. (and yes I have seen lot fulls of MC's in shrink wrap that havent moved...it was a sad sight)

Jacked up MSRP coming back to bite

One thing they never mention in all of these stories is the cost of supplies, materials and products. Are they going up in cost also making the boat makers raise there prices? Did fiberglass cost more this year than last year? What about the carpet? If they have stayed the same as last year, then yes, question why the price jack up. What are the presidents and CEO's of these company's doing to help there employees and plant? Are they taking pay cuts as well? I own my business and my prices on my products and services is 75-90% cheaper than any of my competitors. I rather make a little profit on one sale and be able to make 100 sales than make a large profit on one sale and never have another sale for months to come. I have so much work right now, they we cannot keep up and hiring every week new people. With all that said, the boat makers and dealers could do the same. I have personally seen what a dealer paid for a new boat from the factory and the dealer mark up is crazy! So that 25K payback everyone thinks is a good deal is crap. They are NOT losing money on that deal.

What are they paying for boats David? I know the folks where I live personally told me they try and make 15% pure profit on every sale. That seems low based on what you are saying. I would love to see what these boats really cost to build, before the boat company adds their markup to the dealer, and the dealer adds their ridiculous markup to you.

All mfgs are hurting. Malibu has two plants for sale and has rumored Chapter 11. Times are tough for all, I hope everyone can make it for sure.

Most would probably make between 20% and 30% gross profit on peak season current model boats. That is gross profit though. Start subtracting the additional costs and i would guess the dealers make 5-10% per boat. In th eeconomy right now though I would say they aren't doing much more than breaking even. When you add in all the flooring costs for past models sitting for a year plus, that is going to take some serious profit out of the equation. <BR> <BR>(Message edited by polarbill on March 01, 2009)

MAsterCraft and other boat companies are doing what they have to to survive. <BR>MasterCraft is Also on a 2 week on and 2 week off schedule until things pick back up <BR> <BR> <BR>Fiberglass Costs more correctly resin costs had huge increases along with Oil. Once they are up to the level they where when oil was 140 dollars a barrel they don't come back down near as fast. They may have dropped a bit this year. It works just like gas prices they shoot up very fast with every increase in the price of oil but they come down very slowly <BR> <BR>David That 25K payback is not done by MasterCraft or the dealer. This is like an insurance policy sold by a 3rd party they are betting you will not be able to remember to do all the things that you have to do exactly when you have to do them. <BR> <BR>What percent of Markup do you think are on boats?

"All mfgs are hurting . . . I hope everyone can make it." <BR> <BR>My sentiments exactly. Including, I might add, the source of engines in all wakeboard boats, GM.

I figure, here in AZ for instance, at the end of '07 the MC dealership tried to sell me a new '08 X-star for $105,000!!! No joke. I laughed and walked out. If I would have bought the boat for that price I figure they would have marked that boat up between 80 and 100%. I'm guessing of course, but IMO that would be damn near doubling the price of what it costs to build the boat. Who knows, they might build them for cheaper than that, I would think they do. Problem was at the time people down here had more money than sense. I watched people walk in a boat or car dealership, no wheeling, no dealing, just "how much is it loaded? Ok, I'll pay that". They would whip out the check book and not think twice. Funny thing is, I still ended up paying $91,000 for my Star at a different dealership and I still think they made out really well, and that's fine. Ultimately, products are only worth what a market can and will bear for them. Basic law of supply and demand. Problem is, now the cost to build these great machines are still high and people can't afford, or won't pay what they cost, let alone the markups that go along with them. Dealers have to be getting killed. At best, they have to be living off of their "fat-stores from the last 2-3 years of that high powered economy. <BR> <BR>I mean seriously, I can't imagine an X-Star costing more than $50,000 to build. I would be shocked!

I have to agree with wakebrdr38, can't flood the market with 2008 models and then say you had a record year. Sounds like poor planning.

With absolute certainty i can say that NO dealer is marking up boats at anywhere near 80 to 100% that is laughable. However I would agree that 105K for a wake boat is NUTS! <BR> <BR>Jeff <BR> <BR>Excellent points!

So Kevin, you're insinuating that X-star's may cost more than $50,000 to build from the ground up? Stock of course, no options. <BR> <BR>If that is the case, then it is worth what i paid for it. In the true sense of the word "worth". It costs X to build, then markup to the dealer X amount (company profit), then dealer marksup to consumer X amount (dealer profit). Am I simplifying this too much? It doesn't seem like I am. But please, correct me if I am wrong.

Most of the boat dealers purchase the boats at 30% off MSRP. I would agree with a dealer making at least 15% net profit (probably closer to 20%), as they have to pay interest on floor inventory, pay commissions to sales, and I'm sure there is a cost per square foot of floor space a boat fills. <BR> <BR>Ken Land <BR>Bullet Lines <BR><a href="http://www.bulletlines.com" target="_blank">www.bulletlines.com</a>

" may cost more than $50,000 to build from the ground up" <BR>What I am saying is the dealer is not paying 50k for that Xstar MSRP is most like 30% or so over dealer cost. <BR> <BR>It sounds like the first dealer gave you MSRP on the boat that is not 80 to 100% over dealer cost <BR> <BR> <BR>Now what it cost to build it that might be open for debate.

Right on the money Ken!

i am hoping that all these companies can turn themselves around. <BR> <BR>i wouldn't want to see anyone not have a 2010 or a 2015 boat. <BR> <BR>i hope they are around a long time to come.

Absolutely! All of the companies have helped push the industry in term of style, quality etc

Jess said: "My sentiments exactly. Including, I might add, the source of engines in all wakeboard boats, GM" <BR> <BR>This is a really interesting topic, I just wrote a paper on it and the Brunswick company who build many sports boat brands and own Mercruiser. If anyone is interested in seeing how Brunswick is doing and handling the current market issues they are welcome to a copy - its 2,800 rather fact filled yet boring words... ;)

Agreed Kevin, I did not write that first paragraph correctly. I meant the 80-100% was from the manufacturing cost of the boat, not from the dealer cost of the boat. My bad on not making myself clearer.

I think some companies will be fine. They will just have to build on a per order basis until this economy starts getting better. What I hope doesn't happen, is a sacrafice in quality with the higher end boats.

malibu took an extended Christmas break but there is no rumored ch. 11 that I have heard of.

just out source the boat building to mexico or china. thats next

I can understand the prices of some material going up, but to the point of making a wake boat boat cost 80K plus??? I know the dealers have to make a profit but any dealer will tell you that a lot of there profit comes from repairs and shop work they do. A recent well known boat dealer went out of business in my area. When I stopped by there the mechanic was in the building getting a few things out before closing the doors and I asked him about why this happened. He showed me the cost of a boat they bought from the factory at a price of about 38 - 39K, there cost, but the retail was around 65-67K. Been a while ago since this, so I am going with low figures that I remember. The same boat that I thought about getting they gave me a price of around 60K out the door. Now this is just one dealer and I am not saying all the dealers are like that, but the fact is that there is a nice mark up on these toys. <BR> <BR>Like All Eyez said, they might outsourced to Mexico or China next. The dealers and builders need to come together collectively and agree on a fair price and not bounce all over the place. I can call right now 3 different MC dealers and ask about a boat with the same options from all 3 dealers and get 3 different prices. then if I tell them one is cheaper than the other, they will tell me there is no way it can be that cheap then start arguing who is a better dealer. I hate it for the sport and the fact that middle class people cannot enjoy one of these boats unless they can pay cash or have perfect credit scores, but that is the way it is. We got ourselves into this mess along with the banks and it is up to us to get ourselves out of it. No matter how bad it gets, I will still support my dealer.

they can go to mexico or china but the fact is how many people can pay $80k for a boat right now when peoples investments are worth half of what they were last year.....things wont be better for at least a year if are very lucky. things are going to get much worse for everyone

David, if their cost on a boat was roughly 40K and they are selling it to you for 60K, I don't see anything wrong with that. After you factor in the trailer, tax, title, etc they are making 15-20% on the sale. These boat dealerships aren't cheap to run and these guys have to make money.

Aaron, I understand they have to make a profit and I am not against that. But they can help themselves and take some of the hit in order to move a boat. If they do take some of the hit the customer will do more business with that dealer when it come time for repairs or to purchase another boat. anything will help to keep the industry afloat. Look at all the dealers going out of business out west. the ones hat bought a boat from them now have to drive farther in order to get repairs done or look for a local guy. Then you have to worry if he covers warranty work. I am lucky that my dealer is only 30 minutes away. But for some, there "new" dealer is about 3 to 4 hours away.

another thing to think about is the number of boats they sell per year. the boat dealers aren't like car dealers. they don't sell a couple thousand a year. a great year would probably be anything over 75. so therefore, they have to make a decent profit. <BR> <BR>imo, we're gonna see these companies with wakeboats priced at &amp; around 100k have to rethink their strategy. the whole "name recognition" game can only go so far.

like everything else. they need to drop prices

Or sell direct to consumer.

As much as I don't like the overpricing of MC's I still hate hearing news about any manufacturer hurting.

or a company having to get rid of people.

the Dow is below 7000 right now. it is bad for everyone and every business.... it will be 2 years before we get out of this mess

Malibu hasn't owned their buildings since 2006. They sold them, with a 50 year lease option. The people who own the buildings and land are selling them

Woreout is just trying to stir the pot like he always does in threads where MC and Malibu are involved. How did Malibu get involved in a thread about MC anyways? Oh ya another stupid rumor was brought up.

I can't speak for all dealers but I don't know of any that make 50% on a boat... that's absurd. If they are lucky they are getting 15-20%. But factor in costs to sell that one boat that people don't think about(this doesn't even account for all overhead costs like building, employees, benefits, etc): <BR>- prep time <BR>- flooring costs <BR>- insurance fees for flooring that boat <BR>- sales commissions <BR>- putting fuel in the first tank so the buyer can run it the day he gets it <BR>- employee time to process the sale and paperwork, register titles, etc. Most sales occur over weeks. Most don't come in and say I'll take it like they are buying a t-shirt <BR>- customer satisfaction costs. For example: Guy buys boat, yanks hard on a seat because he forgot how it's "supposed" to open and breaks something. Do you charge him to fix it if it's a small fix? In most cases (not speaking for all) I'd say if it's a quick easy fix the dealer will take care of you. <BR> <BR>Larger multi line dealers can do really well. But I'd say most of your small dealers that carry, promote, and support the wakeboard industry aren't retiring anytime soon off their wakeboard boat line sales. <BR> <BR>Regardless, it's not good to hear news like this during these times. But it's necessary evil for the mfg to stay alive. I feel for the people who got laid off... But if the company doesn't the whole ship goes down so to speak. <BR> <BR>We (as wakeboard enthusaists and community supporters) are in this together. I hope all manufacturers make it out of the thick as competition is good. It keeps Malibu vs MasterCraft vs CC vs ... upping their products year after year.

The hard costs of "building a boat" are only a portion of the costs of doing business, what about the millions in advertising, costs of insurance, employee costs etc... It may only cost 40k to build a boat but you have to cover all your other costs as well.The millions in advertising are especially relevant to Mastercraft, they are a massive marketing company.

yes, and what about promoting the industry? sponsoring contests and riders????

Yea, I would be willing to bet the people that think that Mastercraft and the dealers are smoking them are employees not employers. There are so many costs associated with running a business. These are the same people who expect a new board rack for free because there's "just bent!!", who do you think eats that??

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>All mfgs are hurting. Malibu has two plants for sale and has rumored Chapter 11. Times are tough for all, I hope everyone can make it for sure.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR>A simple inquiry to Malibu produced this: "We have been leasing our buildings back since 2007. The sale of the property is completely unrelated to Malibu. We have a long-term contract to lease the buildings no matter who owns them. Neither of our plants are shutting down and we are nowhere near chapter 11. We are building boats." <BR> <BR>The building issue has been set straight several times before on this discussion board, so twisting that to mean something it doesn't is not being super honest.

Yea because I'm sure a company is going to come out and say no we are almost to Ch 11 and we are in deep trouble. I don't know what anyones' situation is but that doesn't really sets the record straight.

Erik, Dave is pointing out that several have used the Malibu PLANTS sale to infer something about Malibu's financial condition. Fact is, Malibu is not selling the plants. They are for sale, but NOT by Malibu. To construe something about Malibu because the plants are for sale is illogic.

Erik, maybe you read it too fast. I don't see anywhere in my post where I say I have "set the record straight" about anything other than the building issue.

Mastercraft PRINTERS is filing chapter 11 . wrong mastercraft. well depends how you look at it. 3 years ago mastercraft INTERIORS filed chapter 11...

I like when people say that Mastercraft is over priced. Plain and simple supply and demand. Mastercraft charged steeper prices because they could, people were paying it. The market will adjust itself (as it already has) and you won't see a demand for the boats, and prices will fall. <BR> <BR>I guess my point is, that if anyone is to blame for the overpriced wakeboats, it is us the consumer. We were willing to pay WAY too much for these things.

IMO, depends on how you look at the supply and demand. If that's all you care about, and increasing your business is of course what you want to do, it is a good move. When all that demand is in my mind the wrong customer, or someone who is only getting a boat because of it's prestige and that they supposedly hold their value well, treating it like an investment, then you should not rely on that demand to be around very long, as they will move on to the next shiny thing or hobby. <BR> <BR>My point is, in the attraction of more customers, they began to lose their real customers with the price increases.

And, when dealers have that attitude they should expect consumers to go hammer them when the opportunity exists as it does now. That's why some of the "go support your local dealer" posts don't hold water when the same people claim dealers should charge "whatever the market will bear" when times are good. Just saying. Support the dealers that supported you when they could have bent you over but didn't. Let the gold chain crowd wither.

It is obvious now that Mastercraft is going to have a fun time trying to determine a pricing strategy for the short term. With a huge fall in demand, their boats won't sell at traditional prices (to a degree that will maintain past bottom lines). It's hard to say whether they will be able to ride out the recession without changing their prices. While the layoffs could be a signal that they are trying to hold onto their pricing scheme, 2009 will only get worse. Only so many layoffs are possible before they will really need to look at their positioning in the industry. <BR> <BR>When the recession is over and things begin to recover, it will be interesting to see what they do then. Currently they're priced as a premium product. If they become more competitively priced then try to raise the price in a couple of years, the reactions they will create will be entertaining to say the least.

Mastercraft is certainly caught between a rock and a hard place. A big selling point for them is resale value. So, do you alienate this strategy by dumping the prices and tanking the MC used market or do you cut in other places (such as quality) and hope they retain value? I would not want to have to make that decision.

Maybe I'm the oddball but I can't imagine ANYONE buys a boat and considers the resale price. I buy a boat to go boating, I buy T-bills or whatever if I want a ROI. Boats are consumable and depreciating assets just like a car they are not an investment. No wonder pricing strategy took the path it took if the majority was looking for a ROI when they went shopping for a boat. Jeez.

John, <BR> <BR>I agree with what you are saying, however, most people never intend to keep their boats for the term of the loan. So for me, it is not a ROI but rather a depreciation value I am concerned with. For instance, if I spend 50K on boat X and it has a relatively bad resale, say in 3 years it is worth 30K, a net loss of 20K right? Meanwhile boat Y is $70K but in three years is worth $55. Then the net loss is $15K. It is a difference in how much depreciation for me. I know I will never make money owning a boat, but I also know me....and I won't keep it long enough to matter.

Mike, Your method of calculating costs relies on your ability to foretell the future. If you truly could do that you would never need to borrow money to buy anything. Your example also doesn't make any sense because you have not calculated the interest expense incurred during the term of ownership. If you counted that in you'd see that the 20k loss is actually less than the 15k loss because you'd pay so much less interest and contribute much more to equity. There are anomalies that might change that like super low interest or subsidized interest or zero down loans but since you can't predict the future any better than me why would you risk it just to have a little more bling? Most people who use your strategy do so because they want what they want and need an excuse to make decisions that is not in their best interest. I'm glad it works for you but the reality is that it won't work for most.

seriously, in trouble? does anyone think that mastercraft couldnt sell xstars for 40k and not pull a profit? or 20k? there isnt anything different in these boats vs runabouts. fibreglass, check, carpet, check, guages, check. seriously, ballast tanks and "r&amp;d" cost and additional 50k?!? <BR> <BR>now dealers who have a lot of 07/08 on their lot might be in trouble, but I bet the boat manufacturers are fine.

^^^ Really? Sorry but that statement is ridiculous.

20k is too low, but I bet MC could sell a xstar (note - I said MC, not through a dealer... like factory direct) at 45/50k and make a profit.... only thing is that profit would be so small they would have to sell an assload to stay in business and as good of a deal as 45k for an xstar sounds I doubt they would have people lining up to get them... because that is still a lot of moeny.

I don't see how they can avoid chapter 11.

Care to tell us how you made that analysis?

this thread hurts my head. One guy that has been on here for over 5 years thinks they can make an X star for $20k and another guy thinks boat resale value is irrelevant... ugggh

How are they going to pay for all the "pro riders" the pro tour and the millions on advertising at 20k or even 40k for an x-star.What about their employees and insurance and rent and power.

If there is going to be an answer to the rumor, it'll happen in the next couple of months. This economy won't find a bottom til the summer maybe.

everyone is laying off. do you people watch the news? unemployment over 8% and no sign its going to go anywhere but higher. and that does not include people who have been out of work for over 1 year or 6 months, cant remember which they said last night. everyone is in trouble. every boat, board, accessory, car, house builder/manufacturer. and some of the posts on this sight are so stupid, they are not worth replying to

As one of the old guys on the board, I remember the '70s and early '80s recessions. Yes, it will get worse. MasterCraft (Penske) is shrewd. I am sure they will have enough capital to make their next bond payments (although restructured). MasterCraft is the most recognized name in the boating business. That name and brand recognition is priceless (well, almost). They will survive, but there will be carnage with some suppliers and employees. <BR> <BR>The classic saw about lower prices only gets so far. The low price king - Gekko - went under and has been resurrected by Fineline (Centurion). Brunswick (Bayliner) has also stopped producing boats - slo a low price is not a guarantee of sales. <BR> <BR>Face it - we have a very expensive sport. It is economically sensitive. It will take time to come back. It will not be the same as in the early 2000's - ever. <BR> <BR>On a personal basis. If you have the cash to spend, now is a good time for our sport. It needs the cash infusion. Gas prices will be lower this summer than last. Figure between $2 and $2.50, unless something happens in the Middle East or Mexico. <BR> <BR>The best thing to do right now is invest. Stock prices are very low and the recovery - when it happens, will double your money in 2-3 years. Personally, I am buying biotech.

Karl is right. Everyone should go out and spend whatever you can afford on our sport. No matter if your buying a new floating key chain for 3 bucks, or a new boat it all helps our sport. <BR>The best thing is, when I'm out in the boat with my family or friends I don't even think about the state of our economy. Getting out on the water is a true form of therapy and stress relief for me. There is nothing better than to be out in the boat with my kids and watching the smiles on their face. Its priceless. <BR>Have a great weekend .<img src="http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/clipart/smile.gif" border=0>

Billy, i couldnt have said it better! thats it in a nutshell

David, I wish I could tell you. All I know is that they quit paying their athletes, and they may be pulling out of every other sponsorship this year except the PWT. I will not reveal a source, so please don't ask. This is just a market correction. Dorton and Penske got greedy and this is what happens. Remember boys, Chapter 11 is restructuring, Chapter 7 is full on liquidation close the doors bankruptcy. I think Penske is going to put it up for sale, unless they seriously restructure. They're too good of a name to go away forever, if they even goes away at all. I wish them the best, I want to be able to order replacement parts for my X-star when I need them.

I talked to John Dorton, the CEO of MasterCraft, yesterday and he tells me that there are no plans for MasterCraft to file bankruptcy and that the Pro Wakeboard Tour sponsorship will be unaffected by the recent slowdown in business.

No offense David, but of course that's what he's going to tell you. You're the media.

He's not going to tell his wife what's really going on, if my source is correct, and I understand that's a big if. We'll all just have to wait and see how it shakes down. I truly hope the source is wrong. <BR> <BR>With all due respect to all the readers and subscribers on this site, I urge those of you to not be so naive as to think that any wake company is altruistic in their behaviors toward the consumer. We all love the sport and our emotions play a huge role in how we view products and businesses. These companies, in the end, are in business to make money, period. Roger Penske isn't a multi, multi millionaire because of his altruism.

Billy, <BR>You hit the nail on the head! it is all about the family and friends! Being on the water is therapy. Well said! <BR>Dam winter.......

AMO KNOWS ALL! ALL HAIL AMO!

Just seems to me that if you're going to sling mud at a company (deserved or undeserved) and tout your "insider knowledge," you should at least have the stones to attach your real identity to your post. <BR> <BR>It's real easy to be wrong and damage a company's reputation when nobody knows who you are. But put your own name and reputation on the line and I'm betting that you wouldn't be as eager to post your "insider info."

^^^^ bout time, well said Dave ^^^^ the "insider info/industry souce" thing is getting old quick.

Read it carefully boys, I'm not slinging mud. I want MC to succeed. I am just creating conversation. This site is filled with all kinds of conversationalists. Trust me, I want my source to be wrong. I am simply reporting what I heard, just like you were reporting what you heard from Mr. Dorton. Unfortunately in this day and age I don't think any of us should put all our stock into what a CEO says. Know what I mean. <BR> <BR>And gangstar, being on this planet 8 more years than you, I should know more. <BR> <BR>David, I don't know you and you don't know me. What ever damage Mastercraft has done to their reputation they have done on their own. Don't be so arrogant to think this site and it's bloggers have the power to bring down a company like Mastercraft. I am reporting what I am told, kind of like you reporting Dorton saying that MC is solid. Who says you're right. What, just because you run this site? Give me a break man. I live in and deal with a media world far more complex than this. This is peanuts. I appreciate everyone's comments on this site, and because of this appreciation I know this is a forum where people discuss and debate without having to explain who they are on a daily basis. Just because I say something "controversial" that automatically means that I don't have stones because I won't put my "real" name to it. Get off the playground man. Are you going to tell me my mom wears combat boots next. Of course I post in anonymity, I'm not stupid. I have the "stones to tell you that a) you're naive to think that Dorton is telling the truth, and b) my source and myself may be wrong about this. I know I am asking you to take me and my source as a credible one, and that's a lot to ask. I can understand your reaction, but we're just talking here not actually shutting Mastercraft's doors. Actually knowing who I am isn't going to change your mind, and knowing my source is just going to get me in trouble to some degree. Do you have the "stones" to admit you may be wrong about what Mr. Dorton said?

Once again "RUMOR CONTROL" AMO STARTS EM AMO SPREADS EM... <BR> <BR>I am gonna love when all the economic crap is behind us and the the RUMOR CONTROL FREAKS eat there words <BR> <BR>" I have a friend of a friend who heard that Ferris is really sick and will need a kidney transplant" Reveal your source!!! <BR>Or stop spreading rumors!!!

AMO, do you have many leather bound books? Your apartment smell like rich mahogany at all?

Nobody said I was right and nobody said you were wrong. That's not the point. Look up the word 'accountability.' Notice I included my name and my sources name with my statement so that those that read what I report can digest it accordingly. That's what reporting is. That's not what you're doing. <BR> <BR>It doesn't look like I'm going to have success in making you understand the difference. I just hope that someone doesn't decide to do the same unaccountable mud-slinging to your name and reputation some day.

This one time, at band camp..

I don't believe what Mr Obama believes. No need for "transparency" here. No need for name calling TK. You're "almost 40", act like it. It's unreal to me how seriously people take this site. Time for a winter hobby fellas. Dudes, winter is almost over everything will be fine in a month or two. Go to the gym, go work one out, whatever, just go relieve some tension. <BR> <BR>ONCE AGAIN, use your eyes to R-E-A-D. We are NOT, I AM NOT creating policy for Mr. Penske or Dorton, I am just simply creating conversation. <BR> <BR>We'll all see how it shakes down. If I am wrong, which I hope I am, I will gladly eat my words in front of all of you. I am man enough to admit when I am wrong. And if I am right, I promise I won't say I told you so, because that would be a sad day for everyone if I am right. <BR> <BR>Once again, Chapter 11 is restructuring, NOT liquidation. They are NOT going out of business and liquidating from what I am told, just POSSIBLY restructuring. <BR> <BR>Damn people, you act like some one ran over your dog and smiled at you while they did it. Chill out and curb the testosterone.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>It doesn't look like I'm going to have success in making you understand the difference.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR>Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!! We have a winner!! <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>man enough to admit when I am wrong<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR>Wow, it takes a big anonymous man to admit that he's anonymously wrong! I can't wait to pat you on your anonymous back!!

David, I play professional sports for a living, I am used to having my name mud slang all over the TV and publications. That's why what everyone is saying doesn't bother me. It IS a rumor that is all, you are all correct. If I got pissed off at every rumor spread about me, I wouldn't be able to do my job. You have your truth, I have my truth. But we will all have to sit and wait for the real truth. There are two people on this planet that know the real truth, Penske and Dorton. You don't have to believe me at all. It isn't my job to "report" David. That is your job, and you do a good job of it from what I can see. Just don't be naive to think Dorton was showing you all of his cards. I majored in broadcast journalism, I feel I have a good understanding of reporting and the media. <BR> <BR>As for me attaching my real identity, I think you can understand why I don't feel the need to be known anymore than I already am. Which honestly, to you, isn't a lot. You wouldn't know me, but that doesn't mean someone else on this site wouldn't either. I dig the anonymity and so does my source. There are plenty of resourceful people on this site who are very smart. If you wanted to figure out who I am I'm sure you could.