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-   Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=3183)
-   -   New Malibu Surfgate System (http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=794080)

willrice 07-16-2012 1:01 PM
It appears that in the deployed position, the tab/gate is virtually parallel to the hull on that side of the boat, effectively lengthening one side of the hull by what looks like 8-10". If this is in fact how it works, I'm surprised that one side of the hull being "longer" than the other would have the effect that it has on the wake. If it's that simple to create a clean wave on one side of the boat with wakeboard ballast, but at surf speed, that is awesome, and kudos to the engineer(s) that came up with it.

kamighazi 07-16-2012 1:09 PM
i have no intention of reading all the previous crap. but something just struck me, and maybe its already been asked/answered. Whats keeping kids/idiots from climbing all over those thing and breaking the hell out of them?

malibudude 07-16-2012 1:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattwake (Post 1768005)
It is available on the '13 BU's. I'm not sure on cost. I'll see if I can find out.
As of now it's a 3k option.

chattwake 07-16-2012 1:22 PM
They're pretty beefy. Wait till you see the system in person.

The way it works is that the system delays the convergence of the wakes behind the boat. In other words, you sink the rear of the boat evenly, the tab deploys out, which forces water to move around it and speed up before crossing over behind the boat. This causes the surf side of the wake to form a clean pocket. It's the same principal that you achieve when you list the boat hard to the surf side. You are creating displacement by sinking the hull, and then delaying the convergence of the water by tilting the boat hard and essentially poking the bottom of the boat more toward the non-wave side. Two means to the same end.

This is the simple explanation that my non-engineering mind is able to offer.

timmyb 07-16-2012 1:32 PM
That's a pretty easy to understand explanation.

BamaLurker 07-16-2012 1:37 PM
Reading through this thread is hillarious. Your all arguing over the lamest type of surfing that there is. And cwb4me is a joke in himself. I think tige needs to sponsor him since he can clear the wake w no ballast!!! Why are you wakeboarding behind an "rz whogives a ****" without the ballast anyway? If that the type of riding you like you shoulda picked up a slalom boat!!! Y'all keep arguing and Ima check this thread again next week when I need some entertainment at work.

Houstonshark 07-16-2012 1:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakebrdr94 (Post 1768017)
Hey Chatt,
So it doesn't crab the boat at all? I'm impressed. I would think that it would have to crab slightly in order to produce a surf wake on one side. Kind of like making a low speed turn, you get that clean wake on one side while it's washy on the other. You wouldn't need a lot of " crab" for this. I know it is all about water displacement to get the surf wake on one side, so is the tab slightly angled, or perfectly vertical?
It makes sense that it would since I am guessing it is creating some *drag in order to create the surf wake. It seems like you would need to hold the steering wheel slightly away from the surf side while underway.


*Note, the use of the word drag was not an attempt to imply that Surf Gate is not a fuel efficient solution. I have no knowledge or data that backs up that it actually does create any drag. This is simply a guess based on what happens when I put things in the water while the boat is moving such as: the tip of my surf board, the toeside edge of my wakeboard on last year's Ronix One or when I try and dip my whole wakeboard into the water to wet down the bindings while the boat is still moving.

Houstonshark 07-16-2012 1:48 PM
Oops. I forgot to hit send and got side tracked on real work and in the meantime I missed Chatt's explanation. For some reason, I missed the deployed pic. I had it in my mind that it was a flap that folded out instead of folding to be parallel with the hull.

chattwake 07-16-2012 1:54 PM
1 Attachment(s)
It does poke out slightly, but not much.

norcalrider 07-16-2012 2:01 PM
Have any pictures of the mechanism itself?

ragboy 07-16-2012 2:10 PM
That is very interesting. When this is deployed on one side, I am guessing the boat "crabs" and does lean/list to the side it is deployed, is that correct? If that is the case, how does gate affect the wave/transition. I mean, if it is deployed on the surf side of the boat, does it affect the face of the wave in a negative or positive way? For instance, a lip on the bottom of a swim deck can cause turbulence in the wave that are undesirable, however a mudflap type device can clean up the wave of spray and/or wash. This device seems like it is right in that critical area to affect the wave. Seems like a very cool innovation, none the less.

brucemac 07-16-2012 2:23 PM
congrats to malibu. that looks like a great design. hopefully i'll get to see it in action someday.

norcalrider 07-16-2012 2:30 PM
OK from my precursory understanding, could you just narrow your swim deck and install bennett-like trim tabs in a vertical position to achieve the same effect?

chattwake 07-16-2012 2:40 PM
The boat does not crab walk or list to either side, regardless of whether the tab is deployed.

The tab deploys on the non-surf side. Again, without getting into the boring details, it simply changes the trajectory of the water on the non-surf side, and alters the point and force at which the wakes cross each other behind the boat. You achieve the same dynamic effect that substantially listing the boats achieves without listing the boat or crab walking the boat.

ralph 07-16-2012 2:50 PM
Really, the tab comes out on the non-surf side? That is not what I expected. I am liking this more and more, my boat has a tiny platform with room on the sides to mount a tab like that. Plus I haven't drilled a hole in my boat for ages.......

chattwake 07-16-2012 3:04 PM
Ralph,

Please be careful. And by "be careful", I mean be sure to put your camera in a plastic bag, so that if the transom rips off your boat, you can take a picture of it sinking. :D

ralph 07-16-2012 3:12 PM
I will take a picture from behind while surfing!

07-16-2012 3:29 PM
I like the simplicity of it. The boat wont crab because of the tracking fins and rudder. It wont list to either side because the boat is weighted evenly. And all it does is change the way the wake meets up behind the platform. Keepin it simple.

drnate 07-16-2012 3:34 PM
Wow, this is so simple that it boggles my mind! I wonder why this hasn't been thought of before?

Either way, I like it. This whole thread, however, really sucks to have to read through :(

timmyb 07-16-2012 3:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph (Post 1768085)
Really, the tab comes out on the non-surf side? That is not what I expected. I am liking this more and more, my boat has a tiny platform with room on the sides to mount a tab like that. Plus I haven't drilled a hole in my boat for ages.......
Seems like that's all that needs to be done. That's why I asked if the hull had any changes. You could probably test the theory by creating something that just attaches to the swim platform brackets so you don't have to drill holes or add actuators for the time being.

ragboy 07-16-2012 3:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattwake (Post 1768092)
Ralph,

Please be careful. And by "be careful", I mean be sure to put your camera in a plastic bag, so that if the transom rips off your boat, you can take a picture of it sinking. :D
Now that's just funny. ;-)

I guess I can't quite picture how it would not crab or list. That is very cool and would love to see a video or in person to understand exactly what you mean. I love the fact that my boat doesn't list much at all when surfing, but not at all? wow, pretty cool.

Houstonshark 07-16-2012 4:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattwake (Post 1768092)
Ralph,

Please be careful. And by "be careful", I mean be sure to put your camera in a plastic bag, so that if the transom rips off your boat, you can take a picture of it sinking. :D
I think what Chatt is actually trying to say is, 'Don't try this unless you own a Snap On boat.'

ktrent 07-16-2012 4:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattwake (Post 1767821)
Back on topic.

The surfgate was on display at the Redbull Wake Open - so I'm assuming the cat's out of the bag, and I'll talk a little more about my impressions of the system. I got to spend a weekend behind an LSV with the surfgate system. It was a big group of us, with our kids, wives, boards, and all the stuff that goes along with that. We wanted to ride, surf, get from point A to point B, get the kids down for naps, pick people up at the dock, deal with boat traffic, etc. There was a lot that we wanted to do. I lay that background down, because I think it's important when considering what realistic impact I see this invention having on how people use their boats.

We were able to load up on the LSV (11 of us), fill the factory ballast, drop the wedge, and take turns riding (wakeboarding). When we were done riding, we wanted to take the kids surfing and let the wives surf. All we had to do was push a button to make that happen. We didn't have to drain any ballast, fill any ballast, move kids, wives, coolers, etc. to one side of the boat or the other. Nothing. Seriously, zero inconvenience. Zero hassle. You guys will just have to see this system work in person to appreciate it. It's extremely simple. The boat sits level in the water, just like when you're wakeboarding. At 11mph, the wave was big, meaty, and perfectly clean. The swim platform doesn't dig down into the water. The boat doesn't list or crab walk. You just drive straight and level and you have a perfect wave on one side. You can switch the wave from side to side with the push of a button. It litterally takes about 2-3 seconds for the wave to switch from regular to goofy. If you time it right, you can switch from side to side. It's really, really cool.

We were able to run through everyone who wanted to surf, both regular and goofy, without having any downtime moving people to one side of the boat or the other, pumping in or out any water, etc. When someone fell, you could easily turn left or right at idle speed and pick up the rider. There was no concern over shipping a roller over the side. Driving to pick up a rider who is regular foot forward was (to me) noticably easier, because, while sitting in the driver's seat, I was level with the water, and the boat wasn't leaning up and to the passenger side like I was used to, and I could pass the rider on the driver's side while seeing him/her clearly without having to stand up to do so.

When we were done surfing, we left the ballast in, ran the kiddos and wives back to the dock, and then took another round of sets on the wakeboard. We didn't have to pump in or out any water. Had it been a particularly long drive, we probably would have, but we didn't need to, because the boat wasn't leaning super hard to one side. As soon as the last kid was off the boat, we were able to just toss a handle to a rider and let him dockstart. The remainder of the weekend pretty much followed this routine. Some of you are young and have all the time in the world at your disposal. I would kill to be in that situation again. I have to make the most of what short down time I get. For the time it saved me alone in switching from surfing to wakeboarding, I love the surfgate system.

What are my initial real world impressions from spending a significant amount of time behind an LSV with the surfgate on it? Here they are:

(1) You can get a very nice wave out of an LSV with factory ballast, the wedge and the surfgate system deployed.
(2) People are still going to add weight to make the wave bigger.
(3) When adding 11 people to the factory ballast and wedge, the wave remained clean and just increased in size.
(4) At all times, with and without extra people, the wave had nice push and a long pocket.
(5) Being able to pull a surfer without having the boat list heavily to one side is much easier and, imo, much safer
(6) If you like to surf, there is a convenience factor here that cannot be adequately explained until you actually see and use a boat with this system on it.
(7) The purpose and effectiveness of the surfgate does not depend on increasing drag. It does not work like a wedge. I just don't believe that using the system will result in burning extra fuel.
(8) Being able to transition, very easily, from side to side, while riding, is really fun. People who are really good at surfing are going to create a whole new level of tricks with this system. I mean, imagine carving in hard, popping over the wave, and dropping in on the other side while a clean wave forms instantly under your feet.

Look, I'm not here saying that the surfgate is going to make me stop surfing behind my A22, and I'm not saying that it makes waves that you can get behind other boats inferior. It's just super, and I mean SUPER, convenient. It adds a level of safety by keeping the boat level. It adds the ability to transition from side to side while riding. It can be used with Robert's perfered 600lbs of ballast or with 3k in ballast. People are going to figure out how big they want their wave and weigh their boats accordingly.

I'm not going to try to lable the system as a "game changer". Blah blah blah. It is what it is. I'm just pumped that we're seeing more options being created and implemented, which have a direct impact on how we are able to use our boats, and what we can do with them. I really hope some people get a chance to demo this system themselves and chime in on this topic with usefull insight and with their own personal opinions.
Exactly what I thought the 1st real review was going to say. When I showed my wife (we have 3 and 5 year old girls) the video the 1st thing out of her mouth was we can finally surf again. Then she said what colors are you thinking for this one. Lol.

07-16-2012 4:39 PM
^^^where do I find wives like that?? Sorry to stray off topic lol

CarFanatic5 07-16-2012 4:46 PM
No doubt. I need that wife.

ragboy 07-16-2012 6:00 PM
Reading chatwakes review, that sounds VERY cool, no doubt about it. I still can't quite wrap my head around the no list and no crabbing, how that works. But I am sure if I get a chance to see it, I will be apparent.

I guess the only question would be if the system would work in a way to satisfy the hardcore wakesurf crowd, and not only the "after wakeboard" crowd. If it could do that, I think it would qualify as a game changing innovation at least in my opinion. I can see how for malibu the "after wakeboard" crowd is a huge segment for them, and makes sense to hit that first. Very cool indeed.

ralph 07-16-2012 6:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragboy (Post 1768149)
I guess the only question would be if the system would work in a way to satisfy the hardcore wakesurf crowd, and not only the "after wakeboard" crowd.
A little testing will tell I guess. One thing is for sure, you can get a lot more total ballast in a boat if its not listing.

ragboy 07-16-2012 6:07 PM
I agree, I experience that now, its awesome, and feels so safe. But Zero list and Zero crab? Wow.

wakebrdr94 07-16-2012 6:42 PM
For perspective
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWRT9...e_gdata_player

alevitt 07-16-2012 7:22 PM
^^^^^^
That pretty much sums it all up right there.

ragboy 07-16-2012 7:30 PM
I saw that video, great video, but doesn't show how it doesn't list or crab so much, you can kinda tell because it doesn't seem to list back and forth.

ragboy 07-16-2012 8:20 PM
I have some interesting questions/observations. (This is not to detract from this being a genuine innovation, it truly seems to be from my standpoint.)
  • PUSH: I spend a lot of time in a pontoon boat with a higher vantage point chasing one of many world class wakesurf boats (several manufacturers) during video/photo shoots and the like. It seems to me that the boats with the most "push" create the deepest HOLE in that surf side corner. You can clearly see it when you ride a few feet out of it looking down on it, and it doesn't come out well in a picture, or I would post one. This seems to make sense that push is nothing more than gravity going downhill. You ride a skateboard down a steeper hill, you accelerate faster. So the question is this: Can a boat using a surfgate generate the same amount of push with comparable weight that it or another could being listed in the corner? I almost think the boat would have to be engineered to wakesurf with this device, maybe not. This is an interesting question to me, because the Z3 we have has greater push than the 24Ve, RZ2, or RZ4. However, it requires more weight, but it also requires much less list so you don't "feel" the weight hardly at all since it goes all over. There has to be a math equation in there somewhere. ;-)
  • Hull Design: Does a hull with the surfgate make the same shape, lip, length, etc of a wake when weighted to list as it does with the gate? It would seem like if it is not listed over than the water is shaping a wakesurf wake from different parts of the hull, so maybe the answer is no? So would that mean that a hull that makes a great surf wake at list may not make a great surf wake with a surfgate and vice versa? Could that also mean that a boat that requires more list to make a great surf wake will not work well with a gate like this? People have argued that it takes a deep v-drive to make a great surf wake, could that be completely moot with a surf gate?

Just some thoughts as I was thinking about this. It will be fun to see it tested out and how it works for the die hard wakesurfers.

wake77 07-16-2012 8:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhunter
Truer words were never written. Only the opinions of some are valid here.

I have no skin in this game . I have nothing for or against Malibu. I wish they would just introduce the thing . All these videos show nothing . How about some real information showing how it works , when its available and what it costs?

"As one of the chosen few I find your remarks tasteless and morally bankrupt.

Fact is if CC had come up with this innovation it would be akin to the second coming for you. As you said, you have no skin in this game, so right now your best virtue should be silence."

The truest thing posted in 2012.

mhunter 07-17-2012 5:15 AM
I didn't post anything against Malibu or their new Surfgate all I said is Its not going to make a difference for me in buying a boat . If Nautique came up with it it wouldn't change anything . We surf 10% of the time I have 1 goofy surfer that comes out regularly . I'm not saying its not a great invention its just for me its not that inconvenient to set up for surfing. Or in other words the problem doesn't need fixing. I dont use that much weight for boarding or surfing so it doesn't take a lot of time to switch. That's my OPINION if you dont like it then dont read it. Who are you to tell anyone they cant have one?
Congratulations to Malibu I hope it works out for them.

WhiteFoamFilms 07-17-2012 6:06 AM
Surf Gate details
 
Chattwake is a solid resource for information.

Surf Gate was not originally planned for a launch in July. The release was scheduled for Surf Expo in September, the Red Bull Wake Open changed that. The full details on Surf Gate will not be available until Surf Expo in September.
Surf Gate's technology is simple but very effective. Others will quickly move to copy the system. The gates provide a solid surfable wake at the touch of a button, as Chattwake has described in much greater detail.

As a surfer, in the ocean and behind a boat, I can tell you this. I saw the button pressed, I heard the hum of the gate open and then witnessed a wave behind a boat.

I didn't care about Surf Gate at that moment. All I wanted to do was jump in the water and surf!
There was no, cooler moving, family and friend gathering, sand bag piling, Big Bertha chicken bucket placement... no "work" just wake.

To me it is a game changer. There will be surf, even when it's flat.

chattwake 07-17-2012 6:57 AM
Garcia,

I wish I had better answers for you. Those are good questions. All I can really say is that I thought the LSV wave was really good with factory ballast, wedge and people weight. I don't own an lsv, so I can't compare the surfgate wave with a listed wave beind the lsv based on past experience. I didn't think to weigh the lsv we had with the system on it to make it list to see if the wake had the same shape.

I think that once these boats hit the market, and a lot of feeback hits the forums, your questions will be answered. I wish I had an LSV or Adam's MXZ now, because I'd just go shoot some video on my iphone and post it up.

timmyb 07-17-2012 7:16 AM
Thanks for all of the answers guys. Please post up videos/pictures as you get them. It appears to be a pretty solid system and doing what it was designed to do.

MattieK27 07-17-2012 7:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhunter (Post 1768241)
I didn't post anything against Malibu or their new Surfgate all I said is Its not going to make a difference for me in buying a boat . If Nautique came up with it it wouldn't change anything . We surf 10% of the time I have 1 goofy surfer that comes out regularly . I'm not saying its not a great invention its just for me its not that inconvenient to set up for surfing. Or in other words the problem doesn't need fixing. I dont use that much weight for boarding or surfing so it doesn't take a lot of time to switch. That's my OPINION if you dont like it then dont read it. Who are you to tell anyone they cant have one?
Congratulations to Malibu I hope it works out for them.
Funny, you said the G23 wasn't for you either but you had no issues claiming that as a game changer/revolutionary design...

TroyD 07-17-2012 8:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhunter (Post 1768241)
I didn't post anything against Malibu or their new Surfgate all I said is Its not going to make a difference for me in buying a boat . If Nautique came up with it it wouldn't change anything . We surf 10% of the time I have 1 goofy surfer that comes out regularly . I'm not saying its not a great invention its just for me its not that inconvenient to set up for surfing. Or in other words the problem doesn't need fixing. I dont use that much weight for boarding or surfing so it doesn't take a lot of time to switch. That's my OPINION if you dont like it then dont read it. Who are you to tell anyone they cant have one?
Congratulations to Malibu I hope it works out for them.
You just can't stand not having the G23 in the spotlight just like CWB4ME can't stand that the Z3 never did get the spotlight. Fact is all people talk about is the new Star, Harley, and Surfgate. 2012 belongs to them. With the G23 you have a boat that is largely forgotten. It's not pulling the tournaments, CCs pros are nowhere's near any podiums, and they haven't sold any yet. People were excited for 2 minutes but then the same line green tank-like orange teak beast just got lame. Star will outsell G23 at least 10:1, and Surgate equipped Bu's will bring their market share from 30% to 40%.

Moose99 07-17-2012 8:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroyD (Post 1768307)
With the G23 you have a boat that is largely forgotten, and they haven't sold any yet. .
Troy, not sure if you're just trying to wind up MHunter, but there's isn't an ounce of truth to this. There's been numerous G23's on WW alone, customer owned production boats, not prototypes. Has Mastercraft delivered any X-stars yet because I haven't seen any other than the two at the PWT stops.

Back on topic, this looks like some really cool tech from Malibu. I'd be interested to hear if there's a way to retrofit older boats.

cadunkle 07-17-2012 8:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill (Post 1765247)
By getting a different prop you give up something. You will lose top end and also spin higher RPM's at wakesport speed thus burning more fuel. The point of this invention is to get rid of the need to change the prop or to add a big block. Compared to a big block 3k is cheap. Also, to me it sounds like he is sayign the entire ballast setup of instafill would be about 3 grand. Well, that is going to be 3 grand built into boat from the factory. How much does it cost the factory to install 3 ballast tanks, pumps, switches, etc.. By the time that price is passed onto the customer I would guess somewhere in the 1500-2500 range. So really, this may be no more then the price of buying a $500 prop.
Big blocks and small blocks cost about the same to build. You're talking a few hundred more for a big block for parts, but the labor is all the same.

Bottom line, a big block actually costs well under $1000 more than a small block, likely closer to $500. $3k for the option is nearly all markup, some of which would be PCM/Indmar/Mercruiser and some the boat manufacturer. So a big block actually cost about what you'd spend on a good prop but is clearly superior since you won't need to run as much RPM for a given weight/speed and you can maintain a higher top end speed.

I see someone mention Surfgate will be a $3k option. Seems really pricey for a pair of trim tabs mounted sideways. This concept may work well on many hulls and if it does it should be a simple $300-$600 upgrade depending on what tabs you get, if you need to glass in wood on the transom where they will mount. Cost should be negligible on a new boat build with a transom and platform already made for it. Should be a goldmine for Malibu.

Cost doesn't matter much on new boats, if you're spending $70k, whats another $3k for a big block, $3k for sideways trim tabs, and $3k for built in ballast? The type of people who will spend $70k on a boat likely don't sweat another $9k to get all the options they want. The guy who spends a fraction of that would likely be stretching to throw another $9k at it, but can swallow to DIY cost to make these and other upgrades.

Either way, this seems like a really cool option, definitely innovative. I'm curious to see how well it works on other hulls and how deploying both sides effects the wakeboard wake.

MattieK27 07-17-2012 8:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroyD (Post 1768307)
You just can't stand not having the G23 in the spotlight just like CWB4ME can't stand that the Z3 never did get the spotlight. Fact is all people talk about is the new Star, Harley, and Surfgate. 2012 belongs to them. With the G23 you have a boat that is largely forgotten. It's not pulling the tournaments, CCs pros are nowhere's near any podiums, and they haven't sold any yet. People were excited for 2 minutes but then the same line green tank-like orange teak beast just got lame. Star will outsell G23 at least 10:1, and Surgate equipped Bu's will bring their market share from 30% to 40%.
Wow...

Trust me, Mhunter's posts and logic are awful, but to go 180 degrees in the opposite direction isn't the answer either. The G23 is not a forgotten boat, they have sold a good amount, and I highly doubt the xstar will outsell it 10:1 especially considering the negative press it has already received and the numerous delays.

Is it possible for people to remain close to neutral on all these brands and realize these new boats and innovations are great for us, the buyers? They all have their advantages, I am just excited to see this much product development. Although with this much change, one wonders where the capital is coming from to drive it; perhaps ridiculous prices? (They are all overpriced, lets be honest)

cjh1669 07-17-2012 9:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroyD (Post 1768307)
You just can't stand not having the G23 in the spotlight just like CWB4ME can't stand that the Z3 never did get the spotlight. Fact is all people talk about is the new Star, Harley, and Surfgate. 2012 belongs to them. With the G23 you have a boat that is largely forgotten. It's not pulling the tournaments, CCs pros are nowhere's near any podiums, and they haven't sold any yet. People were excited for 2 minutes but then the same line green tank-like orange teak beast just got lame. Star will outsell G23 at least 10:1, and Surgate equipped Bu's will bring their market share from 30% to 40%.
whoah, little over board here. To be honest I still think the G23 is the most talked about inovation of this year. The only talk abotu the xstar I've heard is negative. The G23, IMO, is currently the baddest boat out. The xstar feels like a rushed larger retread. I'm sorry CC did hit it out of the park on their boat, while MC not so much...

22vdrive 07-17-2012 9:11 AM
Chat great review on this "game changer" which it clearly is. Can't wait to see these boats out on the water. I could see myself considering one of these boats in the future.

22vdrive 07-17-2012 9:17 AM
The simplicity of this innovation is great. Not only will you be able to switch sides in seconds but you will be able to go from wakeboarding to surfing in an instant. For me personally it makes sense as I have riders that only like to surf and riders that only like to wakeboard. With this system you would be able to go from wakeboarder to a wake surfer or vis-versa. No more waiting for one group to finish for the next group to go.

factorykitted 07-17-2012 9:38 AM
game changer is the new epic...

timmyb 07-17-2012 9:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by factorykitted (Post 1768371)
game changer is the new epic...
:confused: What's new on it?

factorykitted 07-17-2012 9:57 AM
its called a buzzword. seems like game changer will be the new word here for the next year or so

TroyD 07-17-2012 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 (Post 1768345)
whoah, little over board here. To be honest I still think the G23 is the most talked about inovation of this year. The only talk abotu the xstar I've heard is negative. The G23, IMO, is currently the baddest boat out. The xstar feels like a rushed larger retread. I'm sorry CC did hit it out of the park on their boat, while MC not so much...
I'm just spouting rhetoric to get CWB and MHunter riled up. My hope is that by reading my sarcastic, facetious, and ironic posts they would realize how idiotic they actually sound. I summed it up in the other Surfgate thread. Please go read.

TroyD 07-17-2012 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroyD (Post 1768390)
I'm just spouting rhetoric to get CWB and MHunter riled up. My hope is that by reading my sarcastic, facetious, and ironic posts they would realize how idiotic they actually sound. I summed it up in the other Surfgate thread. Please go read.
Here it is:

QUOTE=TroyD;1768227]Truthfully I have never been behind a Tige as I wouldn't want any of my friends to see me behind one.

Me and MHunter were on Lake Powell the other day and we blew the tranny on our prototype G23 while jumping wake to wake with no ballast 250 feet back. A Z3 drove by a couple times (i forget how many) before we noticed it and he towed us back to shore although he got bad gas mileage for doing it because towing our non-production G created lots of drag.

We then test drove a MB and ordered a new XStar for 2017 delivery. XStar ver. 8.1 I think it was. The hull was made of billet.[/QUOTE]

We all have favorites but how lame would this forum be if we didn't. It be a snore fest like Planet Nautique. A fan boy love-in with MHunters everywhere.

timmyb 07-17-2012 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by factorykitted (Post 1768380)
its called a buzzword. seems like game changer will be the new word here for the next year or so
Ohhh :o I thought he was saying that the new 2013 Epic was going to be a game changer. LOL! Dang boat companies naming a boat an actual word....

ReSession 07-17-2012 12:03 PM
Ermahgerd Serfgert
 
1 Attachment(s)
My buddy and I have been laughing about this meme for a few days, figured I'd put it to good use here ;)

In all seriousness, cool to see the progression of wakesurfing from Malibu!

chattwake 07-17-2012 12:06 PM
Oh man. That's hard to look at. ^^^^^^^^^^^^

johnboyy7 07-17-2012 12:38 PM
i wish yall would take your pissing contest elsewhere. it really takes away from a thread when you have to shift threw all the bull crap to get to the meat of the topic.

johnboyy7 07-17-2012 12:40 PM
im very intrigued by this and cant wait to see more on it and hear from people that rode it. the video from above..... the lip of the wave looked washy. does it need 'dialing in" or is the supposed to be the first nondialable wave? it did show good length.
i have many of the same questions robert has about the push.

wakebrdr94 07-17-2012 4:22 PM
In regards to the push, if you ask Grubb, based on his reaction at the end of this video, it has plenty. What more do we need?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGssi...e_gdata_player

ragboy 07-17-2012 4:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattwake (Post 1768281)
Garcia,

I wish I had better answers for you. Those are good questions. All I can really say is that I thought the LSV wave was really good with factory ballast, wedge and people weight. I don't own an lsv, so I can't compare the surfgate wave with a listed wave beind the lsv based on past experience. I didn't think to weigh the lsv we had with the system on it to make it list to see if the wake had the same shape.

I think that once these boats hit the market, and a lot of feeback hits the forums, your questions will be answered. I wish I had an LSV or Adam's MXZ now, because I'd just go shoot some video on my iphone and post it up.
No problem, I wasn't expecting them to be answered right away, just thinking out loud about the tech and how it intrigues me. I am a full blown geek at heart, and new cool tech, wherever it comes from, gives me a chubby. ;-)

I will be at surf expo this year, so will look forward to getting a good look at it.

bass10after 07-17-2012 4:54 PM
at first the opposite of surf side deployed cleaning up the lip didn't make sense, but now that i think about it an even wake is made by equal opposing forces of the wake joining at the center point at the rear of the boat. by deploying the opposing side of the surfer it would create a new "centerline" of the boat which would allow the surf side displacement to come back further than the real centerline by offsetting the opposing force of the deployed side. damn good idea, simple and effective.

wofrankwo 07-17-2012 5:08 PM
Man It Looks Like It Could Be Amazing!! I'm an old and slow guy so don't know if anybody has tried this on their existing boat? My son is in Texas this week until Monday ...... but when we go out next tues or wed I will have a cheap ass rigged gate on the boat to see for myself what it can do!! I'll adhesive a channel on the transom that will hold a piece of alum plate that I can bracket back to the swim platform and exhaust or whatever works. Crude and simple but very intriguing ..... will be able to try it unweighted and then weighted!! And with my size it will be one hellava test .... that is as long as it stays on lol!! I'll take pics and post unless someone beats me to it but it won't be until next week!!
I was looking at Boat Wake Dynamics and if this works by changing the dynamics of the wake WOW ..... have a friend who has always wanted to engineer something that would shape the wave but he never thought about something on the non surf side!! Genius??

wofrankwo 07-17-2012 5:25 PM
oh and i also have the ability to put 1500lbs on each side with 500lbs up front ..... will test it every way we can think of but only on one side!!

Luciano77 07-18-2012 7:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroyD (Post 1768307)
You just can't stand not having the G23 in the spotlight just like CWB4ME can't stand that the Z3 never did get the spotlight. Fact is all people talk about is the new Star, Harley, and Surfgate. 2012 belongs to them. With the G23 you have a boat that is largely forgotten. It's not pulling the tournaments, CCs pros are nowhere's near any podiums, and they haven't sold any yet. People were excited for 2 minutes but then the same line green tank-like orange teak beast just got lame. Star will outsell G23 at least 10:1, and Surgate equipped Bu's will bring their market share from 30% to 40%.

The marketshare is now at 39,5 % so we (Im dealer in argentina) will reach the 50%

Amazing system in my opinion. I dont surf but will consider in the future.

Luciano

TroyD 07-18-2012 8:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luciano77 (Post 1768663)
The marketshare is now at 39,5 % so we (Im dealer in argentina) will reach the 50%

Amazing system in my opinion. I dont surf but will consider in the future.

Luciano
Agreed, if it works as advertised it will steal a bunch of business from Tige and Centurion, both geared towards the surfer. This could be a grand slam for Malibu, a legitimate surf machine with great wakeboard wake too.

polarbill 07-18-2012 8:39 AM
I want to see the wave with the stock 1250 pounds or whatever it is plus a 750 in the rear locker surf side plus the surfgate in action. Do it, do it.

cjh1669 07-18-2012 8:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by polarbill (Post 1768716)
I want to see the wave with the stock 1250 pounds or whatever it is plus a 750 in the rear locker surf side plus the surfgate in action. Do it, do it.
Better yet, jut do 750s in both lockers and an extra 700 in the bow

lakesurfer 07-18-2012 9:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroyD (Post 1768709)
Agreed, if it works as advertised it will steal a bunch of business from Tige and Centurion, both geared towards the surfer. This could be a grand slam for Malibu, a legitimate surf machine with great wakeboard wake too.
I think the Surfgate is a great idea. Any innovation by a manufacturer that pushed surfing foward is great. With that said, I dont see Bu dominating the surf market because of Surfgate. If you are a core surfer, the wave produced in the Surfgate video is not that great. You are still going to have to add significantly more weight to the surf side to get a comp level wave (and Bu is known for needing significantly more weight than either Centurion or Tige). In addition, most people I know hardly switch sides at all because most riders are regular. Even if they do, I can switch sides in an Enzo 244 in 7 minutes.

I do think if you combined the surfgate with 4,000lbs 60 second quick fill system you would really cause Tige/Centurion owners to rethink what boat they buy.

wakereviews 07-18-2012 9:07 AM
Very nice job Malibu! I think this is really going to be huge for them. Are all the boats in the videos MXZs?

chattwake 07-18-2012 9:09 AM
I can't wait to see what kind of waves people are going to get out of some slammed BU's next year. Hopefully, I get a chance to demo a surfgate equipped boat again really soon. I'm working on it. How awesome would it be to be able to get a comp sized wave w/o having to list the boat at all? I'm betting it's possible. We'll see!

A friend of mine tells me that virtually every bu being built right now, which has the option of being build with the surfgate system, is getting built with the surfgate system. There should be a bunch of these boats hitting the lakes in a matter of weeks.

cjh1669 07-18-2012 9:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakesurfer (Post 1768733)
I think the Surfgate is a great idea. Any innovation by a manufacturer that pushed surfing foward is great. With that said, I dont see Bu dominating the surf market because of Surfgate. If you are a core surfer, the wave produced in the Surfgate video is not that great. You are still going to have to add significantly more weight to the surf side to get a comp level wave (and Bu is known for needing significantly more weight than either Centurion or Tige). In addition, most people I know hardly switch sides at all because most riders are regular. Even if they do, I can switch sides in an Enzo 244 in 7 minutes.

I do think if you combined the surfgate with 4,000lbs 60 second quick fill system you would really cause Tige/Centurion owners to rethink what boat they buy.
I honestly have all but given up on surfing due to what a PITA it is to swap to goofy for me to ride well. i can ride switch, but it's no where near as much fun. Being able to switch like this would be huge for me. I'm already running 2500lbs in bags when we surf, so ebing able to add in the other locker and be able switch back a forth rocks.

Bus do need a ton of weight to get a good surf wave, due to their flat bottoms, but once you get that you can get one hell of a wave out of them. I think in the video they said they were running stock, which is 1250lbs, for a Bu is really light for surfing. The wave wasn't mind blowing, but now you can add sooo much more weight to it and the wave will rock. A slammed LSV puts up a monster surf wave. Hell my VTX puts up a monster surf wave when we slam it. If I could run all my ballast full, which is over 3000lbs, I can only imagine what it would look like

boardjnky4 07-18-2012 9:35 AM
Here is an intersting question. Will the amount of weight, and subsequent wave size have an effect on the performance of the surfgate? Would love to see some more info on a sacked out boat running with it.

dhill 07-18-2012 9:35 AM
I wanted to agree with what many have said already. Though I have no clue of how Malibu will market surfgate, I have to believe it will be towards the non-hardcore/family/majority of wakeboard boat buyers. Personally I'm not a fan of surfing. I find it boring, but more importantly I have to trust someone else to drive my boat that is not optimized to perform under such extreme conditions. The boat is listing, the rollers they have to turn through are larger, etc. I also dislike driving for others for the same reason. Surfing is about the only thing my wife wants to do though, as she no longer wakeboards or wakeskates (too many injuries). Surfgate, or inevitably what other boat manufacturers will engineer, solves this problem. It's the exact type of idea I was hoping for when Malibu teased the idea....something that makes my life more simple and improves the sport. I'm sure everyone definition of game changer is different, but this looks as though it could fundamentally change the way people "operate" today. Congrats to Malibu, now I need other boat manufacturers to copy it as quickly as possible :)

lakesurfer 07-18-2012 9:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 (Post 1768751)
I honestly have all but given up on surfing due to what a PITA it is to swap to goofy for me to ride well. i can ride switch, but it's no where near as much fun. Being able to switch like this would be huge for me. I'm already running 2500lbs in bags when we surf, so ebing able to add in the other locker and be able switch back a forth rocks.
But to do this, you will have to run 2,500lbs on each side (5,000lbs in total). I am not willing to do that because the amount of gas you burn will go up dramatically.

cjh1669 07-18-2012 9:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakesurfer (Post 1768755)
But to do this, you will have to run 2,500lbs on each side (5,000lbs in total). I am not willing to do that because the amount of gas you burn will go up dramatically.
Not at all, I'm running 950 in the surfside locker, 500 center and 750 in the bow, some times adding another 500lbs onthe surf side seats or in the walkway if I don't have enough people in boat to get the wave I want. All this would do would be to allow me to put in the other 950 in the other locker and I'd probably always run the 500lbs in the walkway to insure I got a longer pocket, so at most I'd run an extra 950lbs over the 2500

lakesurfer 07-18-2012 10:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 (Post 1768760)
Not at all, I'm running 950 in the surfside locker, 500 center and 750 in the bow, some times adding another 500lbs onthe surf side seats or in the walkway if I don't have enough people in boat to get the wave I want. All this would do would be to allow me to put in the other 950 in the other locker and I'd probably always run the 500lbs in the walkway to insure I got a longer pocket, so at most I'd run an extra 950lbs over the 2500
ok, lets just say you have enough people and dont have to run a sac on the seat. If that is the case, you are running 2,150lbs. Add another 950 locker sac and 500lbs walkway you are at 3,600lbs (with sacs all over the place). That is a 67% increase in weight. You cant tell me that the gas you burn wont go up materially.

Again, not complaining, just pointing out how it will really be used by surfers. And by that, I dont mean the wakeboard crew that is out all day and decides to surf when the water goes to crap.

Note: my 5,000lbs reference was related to a 247. You have a VTX, which obviously wont hold 5,000lbs.

cjh1669 07-18-2012 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakesurfer (Post 1768766)
ok, lets just say you have enough people and dont have to run a sac on the seat. If that is the case, you are running 2,150lbs. Add another 950 locker sac and 500lbs walkway you are at 3,600lbs (with sacs all over the place). That is a 67% increase in weight. You cant tell me that the gas you burn wont go up materially.

Again, not complaining, just pointing out how it will really be used by surfers. And by that, I dont mean the wakeboard crew that is out all day and decides to surf when the water goes to crap.
Gas will go up, but no more than it does when we run heavy for wakeboarding. I also don't ahve sacks all over the place. I have a bow sack that is shaped for the bow, and which no one ever uses our bow anyways, and a sack inthe walkway to the bow, which again isn't being used. The other 2 sacks would be in the lockers and are plumbed in.

Why wouldn't it be used by surfers? The fact it can be switched mid set set allows for newer and different tricks than can currently be done. Part of what makes surfing lame is the low amount of one wake tricks. You add in wake to wake tricks and now you start to add more excitment to the sport.

lakesurfer 07-18-2012 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 (Post 1768767)

Why wouldn't it be used by surfers? The fact it can be switched mid set set allows for newer and different tricks than can currently be done. Part of what makes surfing lame is the low amount of one wake tricks. You add in wake to wake tricks and now you start to add more excitment to the sport.
I guess as a person that only surfs, I am saying that I am not running 5,000lbs in my Enzo 244 (ie Bu 247) so I can switch sides on the fly vs 7 minutes it takes me now. The danger of running that much weight and the increase cost in gas is not worth it to me.

I still am excited about surfgate and think the potential is huge. But it is not going to cause core wakesurfers to run out and buy it.

patrick232 07-18-2012 10:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattwake (Post 1768736)
I can't wait to see what kind of waves people are going to get out of some slammed BU's next year. Hopefully, I get a chance to demo a surfgate equipped boat again really soon. I'm working on it. How awesome would it be to be able to get a comp sized wave w/o having to list the boat at all? I'm betting it's possible. We'll see!

A friend of mine tells me that virtually every bu being built right now, which has the option of being build with the surfgate system, is getting built with the surfgate system. There should be a bunch of these boats hitting the lakes in a matter of weeks.

Chattwake, I heard there will be one of Norris Lake the weekend of July 27 - July 29. I will be down checking it out along with the G23. Wife gave me the ok to dream

cjh1669 07-18-2012 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakesurfer (Post 1768771)
I guess as a person that only surfs, I am saying that I am not running 5,000lbs in my Enzo 244 (ie Bu 247) so I can switch sides on the fly vs 7 minutes it takes me now. The danger of running that much weight and the increase cost in gas is not worth it to me.

I still am excited about surfgate and think the potential is huge. But it is not going to cause core wakesurfers to run out and buy it.
They may or may not, but really what % of the market do they really make up? Most boat buyers are multi sport families who just want the ease of changing activities and sides. Odds are they aren't going to be running comp wave type weight.

You obviously don't have to run 5000lbs, but you can if you want. I'm not sure what danger you're talking about, a 247 wiht 5000lbs of weight rides low, but not that low. I've seen one run with 6000lbs of weight and 10 people on board. They were jet ski towing into the wave. BUs need more weight, but having the ability to change mid session with a ton of weight is going to interest the hard core surfers more than you think... Every new invention has their nay sayers, and some are right, but for the most part people latch on and it changes the sport.

lakesurfer 07-18-2012 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 (Post 1768777)
Every new invention has their nay sayers, and some are right, but for the most part people latch on and it changes the sport.
I am not a nay sayer. Its just an observation. BTW:Speaking for a dad with a 3 yr old and a 7 yr old, there is noway I would put them in a boat with 5,000lbs of ballast.

cjh1669 07-18-2012 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakesurfer (Post 1768778)
I am not a nay sayer. Its just an observation. BTW:Speaking for a dad with a 3 yr old and a 7 yr old, there is noway I would put them in a boat with 5,000lbs of ballast.
I'm also a dad with a 3 year old and 7 year old, and I've run 3000lbs plus in my 20ft boat multiple times wiht them on board. It's not as dangerous as you make it seem.

It's not an observation, it's an opinion on what you think others may or may not do. Typically it's called nay saying.

lakesurfer 07-18-2012 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjh1669 (Post 1768781)
I'm also a dad with a 3 year old and 7 year old, and I've run 3000lbs plus in my 20ft boat multiple times wiht them on board. It's not as dangerous as you make it seem.

It's not an observation, it's an opinion on what you think others may or may not do. Typically it's called nay saying.
This is why posting on this forum sucks. Nay saying to talking sh*t about how lame surfgate is and saying it does not work. Which I have not done. I made an observation. I said that to get a very good wave you will have to run more weight (just like any other boat) which will either cause you to (1) have to switch sides like normal even with the surfgate or (2) run a lot of weight that you would not have to run otherwise. That is a fact. Please tell me how it is not.

Now let me give you an opinion, the surfgate technology combined with a quick fill ballast would be a game changer. It would allow for both worlds (1) change the wave quickly and (2) not run a bunch of extra weight to do it.

But if it will make you happy, (1) I will not make any obvious observations or (2) share my opinion. I will just agree that everybody will now buy a Bu because of surfgate.


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