Up until the ASR there wasn't another 23' boat that was even close to the size of the G23. It is crazy to think that when the newer style MBs came out they seemed be crazy tall, like a big tank. Now we have the next generation with the G23, ASR and to a lesser extent the SC series. Speaking of MB their 23 and 24 foot options do close to what you are talking about. The 23 TWB has 2300 pounds under the floor and I am sure can fit close to 2000 pounds under the floor.

I haven't been keeping up on my wake edits lately but I saw a solid edit of a dude riding an SA probably 5 months ago on Alliance, which seemed to be about 5 months after the boat was released. There just aren't that many, which is confusing to me.

Can you show me numerous edits with the SA/SC wake?

Why are you so defensive. The boat dropped 5 months ago. Why not just take a regular video of someone riding behind it? It's not good enough, its smoke and mirrors and you can't tell what the wake looks like apples to apples pictures/video with the same athletes riding it.

You're on crack.

We'll mine should be here mid May so I will post some good pics of the wake. I'm sure someone will put some up before that though

I'm not fond of the way tiges look usually but I will say I like the lines of the ASR better than the g on the outside. Interior g all the way. If I was buying one the g hands down.

here's a stock G23.

I think that's just a good picture. The picture that I posted above is also a G23. Not sure if it's stock or not, but it certainly doesn't look nearly as big as your picture.

I'm not saying the wake isn't good, I am just questioning the fact that it's "jaw dropping" when stock.

I'm going to respectfully bow out of this argument, as obviously different pictures from different angles and different opinions will never come to a reasonable conclusion.

http://vimeo.com/70311204

http://vimeo.com/70797238

http://vimeo.com/71973474

http://vimeo.com/73596895

http://vimeo.com/68964798

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAo8M1Duc1g

Considering the SA came out in 2013(which is actually summer 2012), then an edit 5 months ago would be a year and a half after it came out.

So you have, or haven't ridden it?

I stand corrected on the number and level of edits - suppose using Alliance as the benchmark was crap but anyway. I had seen Teunnisons edits, one or two of those, and thought DAMN that wake is huge and it kicks

I went to Worlds last year and the wake from the SA there looked freaking enormous. It was getting on plane pretty quick too even with the amount of weight they were running. They would do a powerturn at the end of the course that was incredibly tight for a boat loaded like that, it was pretty impressive.

Asr
 

I went to worlds also and really didn't think the wake was all that nor did I feel the athletes were going all that big. No 10's or doubles were being thrown that's for sure. But on the flip side the vantage point when watching a wake competition from shore isn't all that good either.

I was told by a rider there that the boat was running 5k of ballast. Which I believe considering how low the nose was sitting!

Dude I dont care it can be the worst wake ever and useless to everyone that is not a pro. Just found that video. Did not realize I had something to prove. I cant afford any of these boats nor would my riding deem them to be worth it. My old school Xstar is just fine. So yeah Tige sucks the wake sucks eveything about them sucks they should just fold up shop. Who cares.

I am guessing he hasn't........

I find absolutely amazing how many people are dogging on the ASR who:

1. Probably couldn't afford it...ever
2. Have never set foot in it
3. Haven't seen the wake yet
4. Only know Tige from the boats they built 10+ years ago and/or are only going by what they've heard a friend of a friend/their non-Tige dealer say about them

I've personally crawled inside the orange and black ASR from earlier in the thread, and a G23 I almost bought last year, and the fit and finish is superb in both. Is the ASR different than a G? Sure. Is it a lesser quality? No. And Tige has for sure come a long way since the old shaky towers and "lower quality" (not my words, just what everyone on WW claims) boats of the early 2000's. They are no longer a local small time boat builder and have proven how far they've come now with the ASR. Sure, they've taken some ideas from the G, even I'll admit that. But I guarantee that many of the other companies will be following the trend as well into the super wake boat class. Nautique proved that there was a market for it and could be successful, and Tige was the next to jump on board. Don't be surprised if you see a Super Wakesetter in the future, or possibly even an "affordable" super wake boat from Axis. As the market interest has shifted from low wake DDs for competitive skiing into bigger wakes for boarding a surfing, the boats have had to change. I think what we're seeing with the G and ASR is just the next evolution of the wake market, and companies building to answer the demand. Once the someone dials in the ASRs wake and shows that it can compete with the G (which I think is entirely possible), I think you'll see a lot more people switching over to it.

^^ I think this thread more so started because of the hype and then lack there of regarding pictures, videos, etc. Not hating on the boat, but the truth is, there just isn't much info out there on it... period. There's a ton of Tige promoted videos and a few videos from it's first contest that was shaky footage. I agree people shouldn't hate on a wake they haven't seen, but that's the problem, with all the hype we should be seeing more wake and boat pics period.

Correct, I started this thread not to bash tige at all. I don't believe in bashing boats. I'd take whatever I could get. Which was a 89 fish and ski at one time. I just wanted to see if anyone had seen the interior/wake in person.

Not a video from inside the boat showing the wake from a passenger perspective. Nobody has that video yet, and that's what I'm saying.

I didn't say you had anything to prove, but you are defending hype(and Tige) when Tige has had the boat on the market for 5+ months, they are being sold in boat shows and they won't show how great their wake is.

I like Tige, I really do. My family has owned a Tige for 14 years, great boat. I just can't stand all of this marketing and hype and there aren't any pictures or video to back it up.

BTW, congrats on your boat. It is one of the best out there still. I'd like to own one someday

I was able to crawl around a new ASR. Nice boat but for the money iI would rather buy a G which is built by a more reptuable boat company and going to be a way better finsh. The ASR is a carbon copy of a G with a different front nose and differnt tower and for those that dispute that your in denial.

One thing none of you can say is that MC never stole a boat design from anyone. The Xstar is a proven wake with superior bulid quality and made by one of the best companies out there which is in the same class with CC and Malibu.

FastR3DN3K - I could affford any boat on the market and however I know that I wouldnt waste my money on a boat like the ASR when a G might be a few K more but is way better built :banghead:.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do find it amusing that Tige is being accused (rightly or wrongly) of copying the ground breaking design of Nautique, who just happens to be currently engaged in a lawsuit after being accused of copying Malibu's surfgate.

The Malibu guys have arrived ^^

oh jesus. "surfgate"

Malibu was just pissed because NSS gets the job done without a floppy set of dumbo ears on the back of the boat :D


I kid, I kid

Inflation. 35k in 1995 is 54k today.

Your 23k I/O in 1998 is 33k today. That's not counting all the extra stuff boats didn't have then that they have now.

I mean.... You're not wrong

Your kidding about this right? Didnt MC get the idea for the Xstar picklefork from Cobalt? Every manufacturer takes ideas from each other.

I'm not a Malibu owner, or frankly, even a huge Malibu fan. I'm just pointing out that it's not only Tige that has been accused of "copying" a design.

Serious as a heart attack. You can't deny that MC and CC are better built boats than the others. What proof do you have about MC taking their pickle fork from Cobalt. Your just throwing things out there. MC started the movement of the pickle fork bow or square bow in ski boats. The Xstar was the first of its kind.

I have a way to settle this. I like on lake Tyler. That's very close to the orange/black asr. Come over and we will run my G23 stock and take pix and video vs the asr and whatever else boat wants to come out. Boat ramp next to my house. Will b lotta fun. I love boats and honestly want to see them head to head
Lee

You are incorrect. Cobalt reintroduced the pickle fork in ski boats. The engineer from colbalt went to MC. MC was the 2nd to have it. The point is every company plays off others. It's was drives the industry. The auto industry does the same thing. It's just the next step in the evolution of wakeboard boats. I could care less if they ripped all the logos of the G and put Tige stickers on it. I like the boat so I bought one! Some of you hate it so buy something else. Everyone should still appreciate all these company's pushing the industry forward.

Justin, congratulations on your new ASR, that is a sick boat... Don't let anyone here take away your new boat high... Have a great summer with it!

Just curious....

What boat was the boat that Cobalt reintroduced the pickle fork with? One engineer was responsible for the entire design? And it was him and only him that brought the ability to design and produce a pickle fork to Mastercraft? Does that engineer have a name?

I mean seriously, this is just getting laughable...

Also, in my opinion copying a hull does not move the industry forward.

The boat is the Cobalt 240SD. It was designed by a guy named Peter Granada who designed the Xstar shortly after. This has been discussed on the forums at great length in the past. The point i was making is that every one of these companies copies each other, even MC. Its just how the industry moves forward.

And the saga continues. The debate will continue. Meanwhile Nautique and Tige will continue to sell boats. All this debate means "NOTHING" to the buyers of both of these boats. Continue on with your debate gentleman.

Question for the folks that think the ASR is "Garbage". What criteria need to be met to qualify as garbage? Wake, vinyl quality, innovation/features, gel coat quality, ride, hardware quality, fit and finish? Since the engines, running gear, and to a less extent the electronics are all the same between the brands I am curious to know where the ASR falls so short?

To me it looks like just a another option over the "G" type boats so you pick the one that looks the best to you and has the layout you want. Am I missing something??

Really, where does this brand loyalty and bashing come from??

You know how when that new kid moves into your neighborhood and everyone makes fun of him because he's new? But then it turns out that he may actually be kinda cool and good at something that you and your friends like to do, but people still make fun of him because he hasn't been around as long and no one wants to admit they may have been wrong. It's kinda like that with Tige, at least that's how it appears to me. Sure they may not be the oldest brand out there, and sure they may have had some boats in the past that weren't that great. But what brand hasn't had a bad boat of some sort? The fact remains that the ASR is a damn nice boat.

This is the best comment in this entire thread. Only one way to settle the argument. I'll come over and hang with you guys and check this out. Let me know details.

Travis Thanks buddy! If you are ever in AZ come take a pull.



I will end with this on this debate.

Who was the first to have a ballast system.... Perfect pass .... Touch screen .... Single mounted tower..... Board and surf racks..... Wake plate..... It doesn't matter who was first!!!!! If you don't keep up with the industry you get left behind. It happens in ever single industry out there!

^ I actually hope the whole industry doesn't move in this direction. It is nice to have a choice. I prefer a sleeker looking, better handling boat.

I think a big part of the debate is because the Tige is so expensive. And at that price why would you choose it over a very proven G23? I doubt resale will be as good, those who have looked at both boats very closely almost always feel the fit and finish isn't equal, and at the end of the day it's a Tige. Having looked at both boats closely, I wouldn't consider it over the G unless it was $20k less.

The other Tige owner I met last year (owned a new Z3) spent a good 1/2 hour defending his buying decision and explaining to me why he buys tige and why it's the best. To me that's sad to have to go through all that just to try and make people like you boat. Oh ya, buddy couldn't even do a wake jump.

I appreciate the info, it provided a good start to obtaining some clarification. Now, onto what I found:

Peter is a designer. He owns his own "design firm" and wasn't directly employed by either Cobalt or Mastercraft. For anyone familiar with offshore power boats, it is similar to what John Adams does for Formula or John Cosker does with countless others. Supposedly He had done some interior design for MC prior to the Xstar, but was also held on retainer by Cobalt.

From everything I was able to find, he is just a designer. He did not engineer the entire boat, Cobalt and Mastercraft individually did that with numerous people in their own engineering teams. It is just like a designer that pens the lines of a new car, they did not engineer it, but they are directly responsible for the look of the product. I appreciate the name and the boat you referred to, it provided a good starting point for finding more information.

The similarities between that Cobalt and the Xstar though are undeniable.

@L W. When I asked the dealer about pricing on the ASR, the price he quoted me was more than 25K better than what the local CC dealer had as their best price on the G23 at the boat show. I'm not in the market for either, but just stating that in my area there is indeed a decent price difference. We were at the dealership today and very much to my surprise the one ASR the dealer order(was to be the owners demo) sold as soon as it arrived and now they have another on order. The boat was still there and I got to crawl around it some. Night and day difference quality over the one at the boat show. No comparison.

^ I thought the ASR was north of 100k?? Looks a bit better if it is less than 90.

$25k is definitley enough to make people strongly consider one over the G. That's a big difference. At the boat show here, I think the ASR was around $115. Our prices are quite a bit higher than the states too.

The ASR is over $100k MSRP. Last I heard the most basic model starts around $109k, and fully loaded is right around $125-130k. The G23 starts at $124k, and fully maxed is pushing $160k from my understanding. The G I looked at was moderately equipped (450hp motor, NSS, basic stereo, etc.) and was right at $140,000 sticker, so if a decently equipped ASR runs $120ish, I think they can steal some business from Nautique. I know if it had been on the market when I was buying I probably would have given it a real serious look.

Probably depend greatly on the dealer. Nautique runs a considerably higher markup percentage. (Just like MC does) A larger discount would apply on that G. At least from what I have always seen with markup percentages.....

I would be curious if that 120k MSRP ASR could be had for 90k or less, because a 30k+ discount on a 120k+ CC, or MC, is fairly common.

I don't know if you could get below $90k unless you're a yearly buyer like Chatt, but I imagine that under $100k on an ASR in the mid-level $115-120k MSRP range could be had fairly easily, which is still pretty good. I know the MSRP on my loaded RZ4 was around $104k, and I ended up around $86k out the door on it, so there's plenty of room to negotiate on Tiges. But I seriously doubt that you'd be be able to get a mid-level $140k G23 for any less than $120k, which means that you'd be looking at a $25-30k difference that definitely helps sway some buyers over to the ASR

Mid level G is $140k? My sticker was less than that and my boat is hardly stripped.

All I'll say about pricing is - at the boat show, the G and ASR were less than 15k difference in price. The difference in boat, however, was not insignificant. The warranty on the Nautique (5 years vs 3 years) alone may be worth a big chunk of that difference.

The ASR was a damn nice boat, but with some odd design/function choices. Is it a G-killer? Not even close, IMO. Will it sell? Not at $110k.. but if they could sell it for $90k, they'd sell a bunch.

My buddies G was 143k MSRP, and out the door at $109k and change (Before taxes). Probably a better than average deal because he buys new every three years........ Still, the available difference between MSRP, and selling price, on a Nautique, is almost 10% more than the gap that a lot of other boat companies run. "The big three" have always been known for this. Malibu not as much as CC and MC, but still considerably more markup than Tige, Supra, MB, Moomba, etc.

Obviously, this can vary in some cases. But if all things are equal, you will get about 15k more discount on a G, than you would an ASR. (According to a dealer that carries both. Although, I believe they dropped Tige now)

109K for a G is by far the best deal I have heard of…hands down. That is a smoking' deal. Thats about 24% off MSRP which is probably pretty darn close to dealer cost. Plenty of guys over on TO talking about getting similar type deals on Tige's so the mark ups are probably a lot closer than you think.

From researching over the years I have figured manufacturers cost is about 50% of MSRP. Dealer cost is about 75% of MSRP. You can confirm these numbers with Malibu's now public Financial statements. Anytime you can get a deal in that 20-25% off MSRP your doing good, IMO!

Ya, no doubt it was a good deal. Dealer only made a few k on it, I'm sure. As for the markup difference, you could very well be correct. I am only going off of what a dealer, that sells both brands, told me.

$109k is an insane deal on a G. I sold cars for a living for a while, so I'm no slouch when it comes to negotiations. The G I looked at was $138k and the best I could talk them down to was $125k + TTL.

If my math serves me correct, that means your buddy got a G23 for about $100k before taxes? I find it hard to believe that he was able to negotiate 30% off the sticker, but then stranger things have happened. If Tige is inflating their prices by that same ratio, then it would stand to reason that an established repeat buyer could possibly get the same discount on a mid level $120k ASR and buy it for under $85k before taxes. If Tige can legitimately sell them anywhere close to that price, then I could easily see them kicking the bejeezus out of Nautique in that segment of the market.

^ I did state that it was 109k before taxes. Not after. It is about 23% off, which is not unheard of for a Nautique.

Sorry, missed that part since you said "out the door" originally. That means with taxes included in "wheelin' dealin" terms, so it was misleading. So that means that your buddy walked out of there around $118k after taxes. If Tige can discount the ASR at the same rate, then the mid level $120k model would be around $91k before taxes, and around $98k out the door. I don't know about you, but if I were new to the world of tow boats with plenty of money to spend, and I looked at these 2 boats side by side, the $20k OTD difference could easily be a huge factor in favor of the ASR.

Looks like my Mercedes Benz

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/n...psc86a3a64.jpg

Mazda managed to make its $20,000 van look a bit like a $53,000 luxury vehicle, So it must be as good Right?

Hmm. If those 2 wagons were different colors, I don't think they would look alike at all.

The G vs ASR look a like debate can go on forever and feels like it has on this thread already. Let's just see some pics of the ASR wake and get more rider feedback!

Anyone have any pics of the surf wake yet?

I loved Lake Cherokee as a kid. I used to spend summers there going to work with my grandfather. He was a carpenter and built many of the houses on/around that lake.

AS for the ASR and G debate, i don't care for the styling of either. I have no doubt that both will perform well.