|I'd like to get some input on what the best tow vehicle is, we're ready to upgrade. Have an I/O 20ft Stingray, dual axle, 5.7 liter mercruiser - don't know the weight. We've been towing with a Jeep Grand Cherokee V8, that tows it well enough when we're going for the day. But, when we load it down for long trips, it struggles and sways some. We're leaning toward a diesel engine because of towing capability, burns less fuel (no 8-10 mpg when towing), last longer. Any suggestion/input would be appreciated. |
|I have a 2001 Ford Super Duty Powerstroke Diesel and absolutely love it. I have been 100% happy with it. Pulls great on long road trips and does not have a problem when I have to punch it. I do have to put the 4x4 on sometimes when the ramp is wet but that is no biggie. |
I also love the interior space, I have a neighbor who is 6'8" and he fits in the back seat just fine.
(Message edited by Pierce Bronkite on September 29, 2003)
|Piece of cake with a mid 90s Bronco. Around 14 MPG. |
Darn near anything can tow it.
My biggest beef with deisels? You can't roll the windows down. Everyone ( I live in deisel country ) has their windows up to reduce the noise.
Other than that, what's an extra 5 to 7 grand? Alot of regular gas IMHO.
|I think that first you need to find out how much it weighs. I'm guessing, including trailer, less then 5000 lbs. I would say an f150 or similar truck with v8, tow package (tranny cooler), will be fine. That is what I have. If you are going on many really long trips and up and down hills maybe a 250 would be better. By the way, diesel engines also last longer and will give the truck more resale value. An excellent choice for serious towing. |
|I've had an F-150 with the 4.6 4x4 towing package, etc, an Eddie Bauer Expedition with the 5.4 4x4, etc, and they both sucked. I now own a 2002 PSD with the 7.3 turbo diesel, and I'll never go back. I hate the new modular gassers. None of them have even close to the power of the PSD. Gas mileage? How's close to 16 mph loaded? BTW it was only a 3,700 option.|
|The jeep engine is plenty strong enough, it's just the size and weight of the tow car. agree with above, F150 (or any full size 4x4) will pull it with no problem. I used a Jeep Grand, then an F150 then a suburban, and now a Yukan Denali and all of them pull great (the jeep being the smallest and weakest of course). The Denali is the best of course but anything full size with a large tow capacity will do fine for that size of a boat.|
|I guess my truck sucks. That's not very nice. |
|Diesel performance for heavy duty towing can't be beat. But it is costly. I tow with a f-150 supercrew, 5.4l, and I am pretty satisfied. Power is good enough. |
Regarding the cost, I was wondering about the gas cost compared to a diesel.
Towing 3000 miles a year, 16 mpg for diesel and 10 mpg for gas with a diesel being 30 cents cheaper than gas....saves you ~300 bucks a year.
Does that sound right? Is diesel fuel more than 30 cents cheaper than gas? Aren't oil changes more for diesel? Long term upkeep is cheaper, like after 100k, I've heard.
So figure if you get 1/2 of that 4 grand back at resale, after about 7 years it's worth it..based on money for fuel, not performance.
|Break even point to justify the cost of the diesel is about 80-100k miles. That takes into account resale value, fuel mileage differences, maintenance differences and the surcharge for the diesel. |
If you keep the truck for at least 80K miles then your better off with a diesel.
With all that said a 3/4 or 1 ton truck with a diesel will always tow better than a 1/2 ton truck or SUV with a gas engine.
But you don't have to have it to tow 5,000 pounds.
|I'd say keep your current truck and start thinking about getting a wakeboard boat! |
|Uhhhhhh Diesel. This is a no brainer. If you tow, a 3/4 or 1 ton diesel is the only choice, power, braking, stability, reliability, and higher resale, what more needs to be said?|
|The new F150 pulls 9800lbs. Seems good enough for pulling my 3500lb moomba mobius. |
|By Bob (bob) on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 9:33 pm:
|Chris why dont you fill in your profile so we know what kind of WAKEBOARD BOAT you have?? After riding where we usually ride (in the intracoastal)behind my boat and riding behind a friends brand new SSV (at the lake) im still glad i got the I/O |
|By Bob (bob) on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 9:47 pm:
|Shane , what more needs to be said, uuuuuh the cost of a $40,000 truck i think would be appropriate. Not everyone can afford or wants a monster truck that is capable of towing 4 axle 20,000 lb boats. Id say most people would like one but dont need or cant afford one. Dont even get me started on the safety this or safety that issue cause if that was the case none of us would be wakeboarding and ill put a bit of trust in the hands of the vehicle engineers who say my boat is well within the weight my suv can tow (with trailer brakes). |
|I have been towing for the last 25 years with an F-150, conversion van, two suburbans, and now a 3/4 ton crew cab diesel. Every vehicle has been adequate to get to the local lakes. The trips to Powell with 6 people, gear, food, etc has wasted a few transmissions and has been marginal using everything but the new diesel truck. With the diesel you go up the steep hills at 70 and have the heavy duty brakes to stop better too. Between better mileage and gas prices, I saved $32 on the first tank fill-up over my last suburban. |
Will a diesel pay back? I don't know for sure, but for me the advantages are much greater and make it worth it. The new deisels are quieter, stronger, more reliable, and don't billow the clouds of smoke. In the end you get what you can afford. But if money isn't the deciding factor, you won't be disappointed with the diesel.
|I have to say, most of the folks here don't do enough towing to justify a deisel. Period. |
BTW Greg - bad copmparison. A 3/4 1Ton ANYTHING will tow better than a 1/2 ton. Duh.
All said, I make maybe two trips a year that are 600 miles. The rest of the time, lakes are within 200 miles and I do it every weekend of summer. Never could justify a deisel. ( closest lake is 1 hour away ).
Then again, if you have the disposable income, go for it. I'll still stick with gas. The newer deisels are indeed less noisy, but still not as quiet as a gasoline vehicle.
|0% financing on 03 Lincoln Navigators. Ends today though. That would be my suggestion|
|These are exactly the issues We've been grappling with. Thanks for all the input and comments. Being an irrational tightwad to say the least, I'd love it if we could just keep our Jeep Grand Cherokee but its a 1997 with 104,000 miles. Like I said, it does "ok" up the canyons for evening/day trips. Its the trips to Powell, as Paul mentioned, loaded with 5 in the Jeep, 4 coolers, drinks, food, gas, etc. loaded in the boat when its too much. Do a couple loaded trips a year justify a diesel truck? NO, not in my tightwad book. But, we need something so maybe we should get something for long-term. Thanks again for the comments. I suppose the real issue if we decide to get a truck, diesel or not, is how many times we're asked to help friends/family move!!!? |
|A mid 90s Suburban worked well for me. Around 12 miles per gallon. ( Denver to Powell a couple times a year ) |
I think what you really want to look for is something with a long wheel base ( smoother towing ) and around a 350/351 engine. As to Truck/SUV, well it's up to you how many folks go with you.
Since I don't have the two boys anymore, just hte daughter, I've down sized to a Bronco. A little rougher ride than the 'burban, but 80 mph, through the desert, loaded down, with the AC on is fine with me
|Just wait for the 3/4 ton diesel Chevy Suburban...........|
|Not going to happen for quite a while. They just recently said the Dmax will not fit in the H2 which means it will not fit in the Tahoe/Suburban line either. They said it would take a longer and taller front end redesign for it to fit. |
Don't expect a diesel in GM or Ford SUV's for a few more years. After 06 when the oil companies are forced to produce ultra low sulfur diesel then you will see a large number of diesel vehicles on the market.
BTW, Matt my comparison was perfectly sound. Go back and read again. I said a diesel 3/4 or 1 ton will easily out tow a 1/2 ton gas vehicle. What's wrong with that statement? Sure a gas 3/4 or 1 ton will out tow a 1/2 ton but that doesn't discount my statement.
We both totally agree that a 5-6k boat only towed a few miles each way does not have to have a 3/4 or 1 ton vehicle to pull it. It's just nice to have.
Unfortunately, if your like me (unemployed high tech worker trying to start his own business) then you would have had to trade your 3/4 ton diesel in on a 1/2 ton gasser due to the $200/month lower payments.
|I've heard the same info about the diesel chevy/gmc suv, its still going to be a few years. BTW - the Ford does offer a diesel engine in the Excursion. How does 45 - 50K sound? Too freakin much, and the Excursion is too big.|
|Check you email Brad.|
|Were is my email? |
|How's that Bob! |
Have you ever owned a diesel?
|I used to have a 2000 F-250 Diesel 4X4. It could pull the boat around with ease. But, as someone said earlier, it is a bit of an overkill for what we are towing. We are not towing huge boats or huge horse trailers. |
Most SUV's/trucks will pull most of our boats just fine.
When I switched to my current SUV, I did not miss the erformance of the diesel one bit. I would even say this car pulls with every bit of the authority that the diesel did.
The difference was, this one does it with a lot more comfort. I would rather sacrifice a lot of extra pulling power I did not need and gain a lot of comfort I did not have.
Just my .02
(Message edited by htown on September 30, 2003)
|I have a Dodge 1500 with the 4.7 (or something close, the new & smaller V8). It towed my 19 SeaRay Outboard all around the Southeast with ease. We are now pulling a Tige 22V and even though it is within the rated towing capacity of the truck (we have the tow package on it) it really seems to struggle and take lots of "foot to the floor" to get up hills. |
I think a 1500 with a larger V-8 would be fine becuase it's not a tracking & stopping issue (trailer brakes) for us, it's a torgue and horsepower issue.
Now I do think an Excursion or F-350 Diesel that was lifted and pimped out would strap onto me nicely but the $$$ is pretty daunting.
|Pierce, nope, never had the need of a deisel. |
But, I do live in horse/ranch country - literally. Deisels do have their place, but I think it's really over kill for the little boats we pull. Many associates and neighbors do have deisels. Pulling ten horse trailers, Tree pulling/moving trailers, flatbeds for front loaders ... ... New or old, they are noisier and smellier than gas.
Nothing against them, if you want one go for it. Just not necessary IMHO.
Hehehe, in my area, anything that's a 1/2 ton is considered a "town car".
|Ok dudes, don't laugh, but the Sequoia has done good for us so far. Where we give up some on the hills, and a little more when we're in need of some air bags, we get back in terms of resale value, reliability and simply sweet accomodations. |
I wish we had the cash to buy a dedicated tow vehicle (both my neighbors have new F-250 SD 4x4's and they're sweeeet), but when it came down to such a big purchase, we chose to run from the Exploder/Expedition lineup and go for the Toyota.
Our boat uses most of the 6500 lbs the truck's rated for. On the launch ramp, in the desert, or heading up the Grapevine, the little 4.7L does real good. Only time I've really been bummed was coming through the Palm Springs area into a stronger than normal headwind - we needed blower power, not cat-back and cold air intake power ;-(
Oh yeah, 10.5 mpg is what I averaged on the way back from Dallas after picking up the boat. I now put the trailer cover on when towing any real distance just to clean up the trailer's aerodynamics - helps tremendously.
Now that you're done laughing.....
...you gotta see what the 4.0L Lexus V-8 does on the water !!
|Shooooot, I want to go to a deisel for the gas mileage and cheaper fuel... ok, maybe not the only reason. |
I have just about burned out my tranny from pulling (1999 Ram 1500 QC 4x4 5.9)... my fault... 75+ mph with 35 inch tires and stock gearing (changed now!!!). But it would be nice to have a strong drivetrain... and I am not %100 convinced that 1500's are going to last the way I hammer on them! And overkill to me equals a long time before having to replace it!!!
And then there is always the theory that "paid off" is always better then "pay-ments!!! (my wife subscribes to this theory, which pretty much means I am a subscriber by default!!!)
|Brad, or anyone else with a Grand Cherokee V8: |
I will be picking my boat up on the 11th in Florida and driving it up to Massachusetts.
I will be towing with a '98 Grand Cherokee V8
Boat and trailer(tandem axle) only weight 3600lbs
I don't anticipate any problems as I'm used to trailering 4000lbs on a single axle.
But I've never towed over 200 miles at once...
Any suggestions, pointers?
Do you need to stop every so often to let it rest, or are we ok to drive straight thru the 1300 miles?
|Svfara, I'm sure you'll be fine. The V8's on the Jeep tow real well. Just watch your temp. indicators, etc.|
|Yep, agree with Brad. Keep an eye on the temp guage. That's the only problem we ever had with Jeep towing but it also was warm outside at about 7000 feet elevation.. You should be fine..|
|I'll be picking up a new Nissan Armada when my dealer gets them this month. 305hp, 385 torque = 9100lbs towing capacity. When I compared this to other SUV's, only the Yukon Denali with the 6 liter engine was better. I do like a lot of the other features of the Armada over the Denali, so decided to go with it. |
I'll give you all a full review when I get the thing.
|T Rare, I'm curious what "other" features you liked over the Denali. I have to say that it's very "interesting" looking (inside and out) to say the least. |
|Big things: |
3rd row of seats folds flat into the floor. A freind with a Yukon says this is her biggest complaint - lack of storage behind the 3rd row and no easy way to remove them.
Price is significanly less for loaded vehicle (~40K for SE model).
Back up sensors - my wife has a hard time maneuvering these things around a parking lot.
You can get a DVD screen with the sunroof - can't with the Denali.
I like the dash better, with shifter in the center console vs on the steering column.
Plug in for MP3 player right in the dash.
I wasn't stoked about the styling at first, but it is growing on me. You can see a full review with video at cars.com
|Dood that nice, congrats. |
|IMHO, its hard to overkill. Going up hills, passing deathly ill slow farmers in their 1970's f100, and the mileage. Payment my 00 is done this summer, maintenance at 86K miles two batteries and tires. I just listen to my friends maintenace woes of pulling with SUV's. BRakes, transmissions, tire wear, gas mileage, yada, yada, yada. Tim is one of the first people who has had a diesel that went back to a gasser and has been happy that I have heard of. I guess it's like shooting a Remington 700 vs. a Weatherby, the Remington will get the job done, but the Weatherby will get it done faster, and look better. To each their own, torque is king. I buy my toys/necessities to be the best at what they do.|
|ah, no actually the Weatherby won't get anything done faster. It's EXTREME overkill. |
( try a BAR )
|heheheheeh, look at the ballistics charts, most weatherby rounds are 50-150FPS faster. That being said I own a quite a few 700's.|
|I smell High Jack! |
You're talking about the rounds, not the rifle.
It's OK for those that are ballistically challenged though
The only Rem I have is shot out. Barrel is way too whippy now.
|I thought this thread was an overkill to begin with, but this ballistic gone way to far!! You'd think we were into horses or something. Any of the above V8's should have no problem pulling a wakeboard boat. I have an 03 X-Star and my Tohoe does just fine - at 80MPH no less. Yay, more power/torque would be nice, but its not needed.|
|Excuse me Mr. Molidor, if that is indeed you real name |
Ballistic stuff gone way too far? I beg to differ! A large round pumped out is for a true shooter. A nice flat 270 is for weekend warriors that don't know how to sight a rifle in!
|funny Matt, I grew up in Alaska if the round didn't start with a 3 you did not take it hunting|
|I may be a little late in the conversation, but I thought I'd add a few things, and maybe reinforce some of the other comments above mine. |
A diesel truck is indeed a good investment if you plan to keep it for quite some time (maybe 150-200k or more). I use investement loosely here because few cars are actually a good "invesment", but a diesel will pay for itself overtime in reduced maintenance and cost of ownership. Oil changes do cost more than in a gasoline (most use around 4 gallons every 3-5k). In southern CA, diesel averages around $.30/gal less than regular unleaded. This likely varies in certain locations. If you live near a busy truck stop, the difference may be more.
I anxioulsy await the day that smaller and even more efficient diesel make their way into 1/2 ton and smaller vehicles. At work we have a preproduction Jeep Liberty with a 2.8L 4 cyl diesel. We WILL see this happen as ultra low sulphur fuels become readily available in the US.
I am in the aftermarket diesel performance industry, and if I were buying a new truck today, it woulg be a Chevy 2500 of 3500 with the Duramax (made by Isuzu). I've recently witnessed dyno pulls upwards of 350HP and over 800 ft-lbs or torque.
I would avoid Dodge, though not because of the Cummins. That engine will outlive the truck surrounding it by two or three lifetimes. Their transmissions are extremely weak. The cummins is heavily derated to make the tranny live, and you are thus pushing the trans to its limits all the time.
I'd put the Super-Duty fords a close second behind the Chevy/GMC. I think the 6.0L ford will be a hell of an engine after it grows up a bit. They are still working out some of the bugs. It is amazingly quite sitting next to a previous gen powerstroke, but still not as quite as gasoline. Pilot injection has gone a long ways towards reducing the noise. I think this trend will also continue.
In summary, if you can afford the intitial cost, then go for a diesel. It will be awhile before you see a disel F-150 so I wouldn't hold my breath, but I believe it will happen in the next few years.
|Overkill is a good thing. My decision to buy a diesel was a well calculated one. I thought long and hard about it before I did it. Like Matt says, diesels are a good investment. In this area, they get snapped up as fast as they can make them. I have two people that have made standing offers on my truck as soon as I'm ready to sell. The problem is, you'll have to wrestle the keys out of my cold dead hands. |
Also, if you pull at altitude, the diesels win hands down. Two F-Super vans, loaded with motorcycles and gear in the trailer, running up a grade, the V-10 van slows to 50 mph with the foot on the floor, the PSD, still running 75 with the cruise on, and didn't even downshift.
I'll keep my PSD.
|Depends on what you call altitude. I've seen both starve for air. |
And please, let's not call any vehicle purchase an "investment". You don't "invest" in depreciating assets.
My point is basically, only about 10% of the folks here really do any serious towing. Get one if you want one. You may not "need" it, but want is a good enough reason.
Heck, who really NEEDS a boat? They're a luxury. So the tow vehicle can be in that category also.
|nah I duck hunt which requires the diesel and duck hunting is a necessity, a way of life. I will have approximately 160K on 2000 in 3 more years, I need the power. |
|Shane, I completely agree with you. If you don't have a big deisel, you'll be laughed out of the blind and probably not allowed to hunt with your party ever again! Duck hunters are such a trendy bunch |
Used to be you could get by with an Eddie Bauer Bronco, but those days are long gone!
|Having a diesel is only trendy in Dallas. I try and be where no one else is when hunting thus all the miles.|
|Mmmmm, diesel.....I'll NEVER go back. But I've towed about 7000 miles this year. |
Realistic numbers for your comparisons (no BS) with an 03 DMAX with slightly oversized tires (7% larger and figured into calcs), running synthetics, and dual stage air filter.
Around town 15-16
Highway unloaded at 75 around 19 or 20
Towing around town 13's
Towing highway at 75 14-15
Above 75 and the mileage starts dropping fast.
Those of you towing 5k or more with 5.4's and smaller that say no problem....BS unless you're only towing flat land! I have one in the garage and took the tow hitch off of it. Also towed with a 6.0, down shifts an awful lot....monitor your transmission temps much? Don't get me wrong, they'll do the job (at a price), but you can't compare them to a diesel. If you can't afford it or don't choose too, so be it, no biggie, but don't try to justify it with biased comparisons and half truths.
|By Bob (bob) on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 1:21 am:
|steve no one is arguing that the suv/gasser tows better then the moster diesel's, only that you dont NEED a vehicle capable of towing a 20,000 lb 4 axle trailer to tow a 4-5k lb boat?? So what your saying is if it downshifts trade up, how about not towing in OD??|
|I personally think that it is necessary for my purposes. I don't need a lot of things, but most of the things I have make my life a lot easier. Look at what the tow boat dealers drive, not a lot of half tons at the dealerships.|