|My brother in law is looking at getting a Yamaha boat (either AR210 or AR230HO). He's looking mainly for a family runabout boat. He does wakeboard, but not seriously. His big thing is safety with the kids. With a Yamaha jet boat there's no worries about the prop chopping anyone up. |
I don't know too much about jet boats. What are the pros/cons of a jet boat versus a direct drive or vdrive?
His arguments for a jet boat are:
1. No prop=safer for family/kids.
2. Planes MUCH faster than prop boat.
3. Accelerates MUCH faster than prop boat.
I'm thinking to myself, "if points 2 and 3 are true, why doesn't any pro tournaments use jet boats for towing?"
Those out there with jet boats, are points 2 and 3 true? Also, how is the wake on these boats?
|I just gave a kid a pull that rides behind a Yamaha...blah, blah, blah. He couldn't believe the difference in the size and hardness of the wake vs. a jet boat. |
I don't think points 2&3 are true in comparison to a Ski boat maybe a weighted wake boat.
I would not buy a jet boat they only seem to be good for running around and making a mess at the loading ramp.
|Easier to throw your passengers out of the boat since it accelerates so quickly. |
Also since the water is being jetted out, it has to be sucked in somehow..... so easier to suck in a rope, weeds, mud, someones arm?
|What is gas consumption on these boats like - Seadoo makes one with twin 225 HP motors (450 HP)- I have to think that burns a lot of fuel.|
|Don't forget that if for some reason the motor dies while under way...you have no steering as the propulsion is the steering. V drives and stern drives are still turnable in an emergency with no power to the propeller. |
They eat tons of gas.
I think there are better options out there for what he is looking to do...maybe even for less.
|They eat tons and tons of gas.Compared to a inboard the only difference is the top end speed is better. |
In terms of safety a jet can remove the skin from your body and crack ribs so theres no bonus there.
Also resale on a inboard is alot better.
|Jet propulsion is far less efficient than a prop, by 20% at least from what I understand. |
I've ridden behind the Yamaha "210" boat and its a piece of s**t when it comes to wakeboarding. Better than nothing by far but not close to any towboat.
|His other argument is "since they have twin engines, if one goes down, you can still get back to shore with the other engine." |
I'm trying to talk him out of getting a jet boat but don't have any personal experience with them. For how much he's about to spend he can get a sweet used VD that I think will be much better all around (for just cruising and for water sports). Keep the comments coming, I need all the ammo I can get for this debate.
|I would trust a single vdrive over a twin two stroke anyday. |
They also spin in circles when your not under power making them hard to get on the trailer.Makes for good dock entertainment though.
|Twin Engines: |
- Twin gas
- Twin oil changes
- Twin impeller changes
- Twin (double) potential for breakdowns
Just.... Don't.... Do It.
Better, have him demo both the Yamaha & V-drive of his choice. Make sure he rides behind both. Like all have said, no comparison.
|Had a customer that had an AR230HO. When he told me how much gas the thing used I about fell over. |
cons of a jet boat IMPO
1.higher maint. 2 engines 2x the cost.
2.MUUUUCCCCHHHHH!!!!!! higher fuel consumption
3.not even in same class when it comes to wakes
5.dependabilty less than inboard
6.comfort of ride in ruff water sucks
Not trying to piss off jet boat owners.But they just dont compare to a true wake/ski boat they just dont.I would make sure your brother inlaw reads this thread.I would also suggest he test drive some different types of boats before he buys a jet boat.
|Here's what I tell people when they ask me about I/O's. I think it applies to jet boats too: |
"There is nothing you can do behind an I/O that you can't do behind an inboard. However, there are many things you can do behind an inboard that you can't do well behind an I/O."
Seriously, I don't see the advantage to I/O's and jet boats.
I used to think it was money... but then I met a guy who recently spent close to $50k on a 22' Sea Ray. MSRP on the Yamahas is $35k - $45k w/out options. Yikes!
I used to think it was the rough water ride... then I rode in a SeaDoo boat and that thing had a very hard, bumpy ride. My MB does great in rough water.
And worrying about kids and the prop is silly. It's a non issue for those who practice good boat safety. Kids keep their butts in their seats. Period. If his kids are too small to obey that, he shouldn't be buying a boat at all. He should be more worried about drowning, I would think
Sounds to me like you guy just likes the Yamahas and is telling himself whatever he needs to hear to justify it. That's fine. But I bet he'll be trading up to a v-drive in a few years...
One more thing to tell your buddy... tell him you know a guy on the forum who bought a big v-drive for his very first family boat (four kids age 3 up to 9). Tell him that guy didn't even know how to surf or wakeboard when he bought the boat, but he knew he'd regret getting a "starter" boat so he just dove right in. Tell him that same guy has learned how to wakeboard just three months later and is soooooo very happy he didn't fall for a lesser boat. He's glad to have bought his second boat first... a boat he and the family can grow into over the years. That guy is me.
|I have a VD that he's been riding behind. He's new to wakeboarding and does it, but not as passionately as we (wife and I) do. All of a sudden, I hear he wants to get a boat. I'm stoked because I thought it was going to be a towboat of some kind. It would be cool to have another towboat in the family. But why a jet boat? |
Andy G/Kevin-I like your point about 2X cost/maintenance with two engines. I'll bring this point up.
I'm curious how much more gas a jet boat burns compared to a VD. Does anyone have numbers of some sort?
|ixfe-I was blown away by the price of the boat too! Like I said earlier, he can get a sweet used (maybe even new) VD for that price! |
Right now, my strongest points to use in this debate is:
1. Purchase cost
2. Cost of maintenance/gas consumption
3. Resale value
Like I mentioned earlier, he's not really into wakeboarding as much as I am so there's no point arguing wake output (or lack of). I'll hit him in the pocketbook. Hopefully, it will get him thinking about another type of boat (DD or VD would be my vote).
|JP... he may not be into wakeboarding, but that's besides the point. |
It's all about keeping your options open. I feel that with a v-drive you can grow into your boat regardless of where your interests may take you... wakeboarding, surfing, kneeboarding, skiing, tubing, etc.
On the other hand, I think many other types of boats limit your options. If this is his first boat, he has no idea what water activities the family will gravitate towards. With the v-drive, he can do it all. When I bought my boat I was intent to learn to wakeboard, but I had no idea if I'd be successful. Now that I can get up and ride around... I can't imagine spending time on the water just sitting in the boat and cruising around like I used to. Riding on weekday glass on the Willamette (like I did today) is just something I can't describe with words.
One last point that I don't think anybody has mentioned... SIZE! The biggest Yamaha is 23'0" but that measurement includes a swim platform that cannot be removed. So that 23' Yamaha is more like a 20' v-drive on the inside... it is only rated for 10 people! That's a joke for a 23' boat that probably won't even fit in his garage. And the beam is only 90"... not good by today's standards... not if you are spending $50k.
|Most of the advantages have already been covered. Only thing I can add is that if he cares about resale value, nothing in the boating world does any better than a slightly used V-drive. |
Boating has risks, period. If he's really that worried about someone getting hurt or killed, he should probably find another activity. I don't know any numbers, but I'd be willing to bet that drownings far surpass prop accidents as far as boating fatalities.
|I used to think the same as all of the above, but I recently was out on a Yamaha. I was very impressed with the way the boat handled. It was slower than my old I/O 4.3L v-6 out of the hole. However it had plenty of juice to do any water sport. I think with experience you can load it onto a trailer easily as the family I was out with did so. The only real pro for a jet boat other than if one engine dies you have the other is for shallow water. There is no comparison on which boat I would rather have on a shallow river, which is where we were. The boat felt well built and I think it would work out for him. That being said I would not buy a jet boat. Just imagine showing up to the lake and getting only one engine started, then what. They are just personal watercraft engines, yes reliable, but very unreliable when compared to V-drives engines.|
|I know someone has already commented on the reliability of an inboard, but to further that comment I have never seen or heard of 4000 hours plus being put on a jet propulsion as I have an inboard motor.|
|I have a buddy that water skied behind a Yamaha AR210 and he said, When he was behind it, it felt like he was sinking, When he got outside of the boat it felt normal, when he crossed over to get to the other side every time he went over the wake, it felt like he was sinking.|
|I work with a fellow that has the 23ft Yamaha. He has had a hell of a time keep the engines tuned so they run correctly. I know he has also complained about fuel consumption. I also saw a family stranded on the lake after sucking their tube rope up into the intake. At least with a prop boat you can cut a rope if it gets caught.|
|Thanks to everyone for the responses. I'm going to have him read this thread and hopefully can get him to change his mind.|
|Just tell him people will laugh at him and it should kill his desire.|
|I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that any inboard or v-drive will out plane a jet boat. Hint: there is a reason that they don't race jets in drag boats. |
if he is about to spend 50g's on one of those you better slap him. I know for a fact that you can find, ANY boat you want used for under that.
|Ive been in both and have sold both.. |
pros to Jet drive boats
1 Quick acceleration
2 Great turnability
3 No prop
4 Ability to idle through shallow waters.
5 Very waterproof interiors.
Cons to Jet drive boats
1 Horrible resale value
2 Horrible fuel consumption
3 Not that reliable
4 Harder to find a shop to work on them
5 Double the operation costs
6 Sucks up rocks, ropes, weeds etc.
7 Horrible wakes
8 Not so cozy interiors
9 Usually noisy ( motors,waters slapping etc.)
10 Not easy to dock or maneuver in tight spaces ( at first)
My pick... I/0 with large swimplatform to cover drive/prop, or a V- drive..
Tell him no starting engine with anyone in water prior to starting and there will NEVER be a prop issue!
|Wow, so much misinformation, dare I even say ignorance!!! |
AL - I will take that bet any time and any day that one of the v-drive or any inboard will out plane an AR230HO. But I wouldn't take that bet though, believe me, I have 2 neighbors with boats, an '08 Malibu Wakesetter, and one with a Maxum I/O and we went camping together 2 weeks ago. I blew them all away out of the hole. The one with the Malibu had just his wife and 3 kids on board (3,5,7), the one with the Maxum has about the same amount of people as I did, 8 people on board. Both of their boats are very nice, no question about it.
Brock Landers - No, the 230 boats DO NOT have 2-stroke engines. They have never put a 2-stroke in a 230 series, they have been 4-stroke since their introduction in 2004. Loading problem??? I powerload my AR230HO onto the trailer, into the Boat Buddy II, all in one shot w/o getting my feet wet.
How much gas do you put in a day??? It all depends on your usage just like any other boat out there!!!
josharre2000 - tell your buddy to change spark plugs, switch to Iridium. There's nothing that needs to be done on these engines to tune them. Rope sucked up, cut it by pulling the access clean out ports, you don't even have to get wet much less get under the boat!!! Or better yet, pull a spark plug and pull the rope out, simple as that!!!
It is not a dedicated wakeboard boat and it never claim to be. It is a great all around family boat.
Impeller change? why would you have to do that??? that's the same logic as telling those who ran agrounds with the DD or V-drive, or hit a rock, log, etc. bent their shaft, prop that they should have used a row boat!!!
You can find a new Yamaha for less than $35k, even less for used ones, just like any other boats.
Bill k - suck in someone's arm? That's just brilliant!!! And a prop boat won't chop you up if you stick your arm in there!!!
KEVIN - how many of the wakeboard boats you know go in rough water to be able to make a valid comparison???
ixfe - beam of 90" on a 230 series boat? Where do you get your information from? It's 8' 6" which translates to 102"!!!
It's ok to not like it because it's jet propelled but get your facts straight before you go off on a boat.
|I have not ridden in the Yamaha, but I own a 2008 230 challenger. I would recommend this boat to anyone that is looking for a good all around family boat. At 23 feet it has plenty of room for 12 passengers. I am 6'5" and 310lbs and with 430hp it has not problem pulling me out of the water. I am relatively new to wakeboarding, but I thought the pull was just as good behind my boat as it is my buddies Malibu. I don't have a lot of experience with wake sizes and shapes, but I have seen some pretty sick tricks going on behind me. Around the dock it takes a little getting used to the steering but it is very easy to master. I can get into and out of the tightest places with ease. The fuel consumption is not bad at all, at full throttle you are going to burn through some fuel, but at half throttle you are still cruising at about 40mph. The top speed I have gotten out of it was 65mph at New Melones. The boat is simply a blast...I have sucked a rope up into one of the impellors and had to limp back to the dock. But I have also sucked a rope into the prop of my dads fishing boat on the delta. I can tell you I would much rather have one engine to get me to someplace safe than to have to try and cut the rope out of the prop in the middle of november in the main channel any day.|
|Reliability issue??? |
In 3 seasons with my AR230HO, I have never had a single mechanical issue. Change oil and spark plugs once a year, that's all I have ever had to do. No transmission gear oil to worry about, no seal leaks to worry about, no bent shaft, no prop damage, etc.
High gas consumption??? Is there anyone that's commenting here have actual knowledge or just go off on hearsay???If you wakeboard all day, tube all day, then yes, you will use a lot of gas a day, are you saying that a BU/MC/SAN won't use that much gas in a day doing the same thing?
On a typical 3-day weekend of mixed usage, I use 40 gallons of gas.
Why double the operations cost? It only has 4 cylinder per engine, total of 8 spark plugs, same number of plugs as the big v-8 engines! It has one gas tank, 50 gallon tank, 3 qts oil change per engine so 6 qts total, same as a v-8!
If you have steering issues with a jet boat, install a set of Cobra Jet Steering and you will be able to drive, steer at low speed any where, just like an I/O.
Hard to find a shop to work on them - that's because there isn't anything you need to do for them. They are basically maintenance free!!!
My neighbor with the Maxum just spent $1000 to "maintain" is outdrive, change seals, gaskets, etc. He's gone through 4 props, either damaged or bent, I helped installed 2 of them. My neighbor with the malibu just spent $450 on a new prop after his wife hit a rock.
(Message edited by kvoman on July 10, 2009)
|KVOman, I would like to take that bet that your ar230ho will out plane any inboard. I have a Svfara SVone center mounted vdrive that im putting up to the challenge! |
|SOOO when are we gonna do this test. I'm sticking to my guns that and unweighted v-drive will out plane your boat. I might be wrong but I just don't see it. Un-weighted our boat is a rocket. |
I would say the only place you have us is if you wanted to race in 10" of water. You will get us there.
|I am not going to say that my boat will beat any v-drive, but it gets up to plane almost instantly...Rod that is a sick boat. Where do you go out? I would love to see it in the water. I don't know that I am faster, but I would give it a hell of a run.|
|Rod - Anytime you're down in Morgan Hill, we can go to Anderson Lake. Plenty of room to run. |
SVone vs AR230HO
2400lbs vs 3200 lbs
30 gallons vs. 50 gallons
330 HP vs. 320 HP
I'm giving up close to 1k lbs (with full tank of gas) and less than 10 HP to a smaller boat with more HP but I'm game.
AL - Anything is possible...
(Message edited by kvoman on July 10, 2009)
|I see that Rocklin is only 2.5 hours from Morgan Hill. Let's get ready to rumble!!|
|Bring your brother!!!|
|actually i have the 343HP .|
|It looks like this might happen, I want in.|
Prop boats have better fuel efficiency then a jet powered boat SAME HORSEPOWER RATING.
(Message edited by supra on July 10, 2009)
|Twin Jet boats are garbage and the most expensive owners goggles in the world won't change that.Do yourself a favor and dump it. |
(Message edited by formfunction on July 10, 2009)
|Rod - Looks like in stock form (330 HP) you'd beat me by a hair from 0-30 MPH, with the 343 HP engine, you'll probably get me by a nose or so, that's with close to 1k lbs heavier than yours. |
SVOne with stock engine
0-30 MPH, 4.5 sec
0-36 MPH, 5.7 sec
Top speed 45.1
SeaDoo Challenger 430 HP
Time to Plane 2.4 sec
0-30 MPH, 3.9 sec
Yamaha AR230HO 320 HP
Time to Plane 2.9 sec
0-30 MPH 4.9 sec
(Message edited by kvoman on July 10, 2009)
|The jet motors can suck in your rope and ruin your weekend. It gets stuck in there and its a pain in the ass to get out. Also safety is over rated on a Jet Boat. It can suck your arm or leg in just as easy. I use to have a seadoo jet boat. I have 4 kids. Even when I had my jet boat. I turned my motor off when the kids are swimming, common sense. |
The biggest pro to the jet boat is its EASY AS HELL to drive. Literally drives like a car. After driving the Seadoo for my first boat, then driving the malibu. I must say, I was very very frustrated at first because I couldnt control my boat what so ever.
The biggest con is the jet boats handle chop like crap!! Plus, a wakeboard boat seating and storage is second to none.
Resale value is important. You will never be able to resell your jet boat.
|kvoman... sorry, I am not good at math. You are right, 8'6" is 102" |
However, I stand by my statement... 10 people capacity for a 23' boat is a joke. My 21' v-drive is rated for 16.
That alone was enough for me to stay away from the Yamahas... yeah, I looked.
And as far a $$ is concerned, the only Yamaha you can get for $35k is the smallest 21' boat. With that HUGE built-in platform it's more like a 19' boat on the inside. For same money, I'd hit up a Moomba Outback V... brand spanking new.
|ALL of them! I work on boats for a living. I Have driven them all.NO jet boat will ride as good in the ruff stuff as the new V Drive boats do.Its not even close.I just put a monster tower on a new yamaha.Had to be the thinest fiberglass/gelcoat layup i have ever seen.The build quality of a yamaha is a joke.I am in and out of boats all day every day and there is no way you are going to tell me a yamaha is built better than say a Tige,Mailbu,MasterCraft,Nautique,Supra. |
It's like comparing a Kia to a Corvette.
I am glad you enjoy your jet boat because thats what its all about being on the water with family and friends.that being said.
Friends dont let friends or family buy jet boats.
(Message edited by kko13 on July 11, 2009)
|I checked out a new Yammy 230 at a launch ramp. |
I see the attrition it is good sized and well laid out. My take is its just another fake wake
wannabe. Put on a tower and now its a wake boat.
With 25 years on the water I have never found anything to out pull an inboard. As for the prop they are the safest boats with the prop under the boat. If your friend wants a Yammy tel him to look at used there are plenty out there and their resale is very low. He can get one for half of new and avoid taking the hit in a couple years when he outgrows it.
|Just Say No to Squirt-Guns!!!!!!!!!|
|This is funny, its like a bunch of kids, " mine is better because it does this and yours does that" Who gives a ****. It's a boat if someone wants it well let him have it, if they have the money for it than obviously they have hopefully considered their options. And you know good for them we all are on the lake for the same thing....... I think, Beer and fun. |
|Nothing outmaneuvers an experienced jet boat driver. They are by far the most maneuverable propulsion system there is. |
Also unloaded vs unloaded I can see a jet out performing a prop. You get max thrust off idle with a jet. A prop just won't spin up that fast.
Add weight and that is where things change IMO. Jet boats can't take the weight that a good prop boat can.
I'd rather have the vdrive but whatever you do if he buys the jet boat then teach him not to power turn!!! Every jet boat driver in Marine Stadium power turns like a jackass.
|I have had 3 jetboats before buying my vdrive. You cant beat a twin engine jetboat to plane with or without a rider. Also if you know how to drive then you can get in tight places very easily. I would never tell anyone not to buy one cause they are fun boats. But would i buy a new one? Never.|
|Big E nice profile pic.LOL |
Unweighted i agree jet boat plane out faster. You add ballast and a good size rider forget about it V-Drive all the way.
|In 2000 a bunch of us were involved in a world record attempt to pull 120 skiers behind a single boat. The boat used was the Klondike Express, a 137' catamaran with two jet engines with over 6000 horsepower! |
In the end the skiers won. The boat wasn't able to take in enough water to get any forward momentum going at all. Bottom line is the load caused the jet props to cavitate.
I was one of the guys one the boom stringin ropes for the skiers. Riding on the booms 10' above the water was still a ton of fun. Then on the hydrofoil attempt the guy next to me went down under me & took me out.
I'd bet that weighting a jet boat would cause something similar eventually.
|"You cant beat a twin engine jetboat to plane with or without a rider." |
Hmm thats funny. My friends AR230 must go wide open throttle and stay there to get me out of the water when im on a slalom ski.
If you go wide open throttle on my boat you cant even hold onto the handle?????(im 6'4" and 210lbs).
Maybe your theory holds true for you little guys.
|Not to takes sides with the jet boat, but if you guys run over ropes that much, you should probably try and become a better driver.|
|Running over the rope is bad news regardless of what boat you are in.|
|Local guy has an AR210, and it looks pretty cool for use as a runabout, but certainly not as a hardcore wakeboat. |
Has nobody considered the aeration that will happen to the wake from the jets? The wake will be mushy as hell with all those air bubbles.
|Bubbles? Go W2W.|
|John, seriously? Youre blowing a jet of water and air bubbles right at the rooster tail. The wake itself is going to be aerated, not just the middle section. Its not something you can simply jump over. Even the wake behind an inboard/outboard suffers noticeably from aeration due to exhaust. Its going to be much worse on a jetboat.|
|UM, I was joking. |
Here, just for you
I guess I'm now wondering why people like their FAE's so much but that would be a threadjack.
(Message edited by roverjohn on July 13, 2009)
|I owned a yamaha ls2000 for years, bought it in 2000. It was a lot of fun but what a pile of junk. Everything broke, radio, seats, cup holders, lockers, spider cracks, etc. Now granted it was one of their first models so maybe they got a lot better. The most important thing to consider is the jets sucking in stuff. If you boat on a weedy lake you will spend hours cleaning the weeds out of the jets!|
|Riding a board on a wake & or prop wash full of air is bad. And it SUCKS on a foil. I don't even like the wake made with a Wedge for the same reason. |
Ballast makes the cleanest, hardest wakes loaded with pop. Any of you guys with a jet boat ever try loading your boat with 1000 or 2000 lbs of ballast?
(Message edited by bill_airjunky on July 13, 2009)