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WakeWorld Discussion Board » >> Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles Archive » Archive through March 18, 2009 » Attention Supra Moomba owners... « Previous Next »
By Newty (newty) on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 4:47 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Like many of you I am always looking to customize, upgrade or improve things in my boat. After constant tinkering and troubleshooting the existing system with its 1 fill and 3 empty pumps and its very restrictive sprinkler solenoid valves, I have made a fairly significant find.
I removed the solenoid from the manifold and removed the hose. I was playing around with the toggle switch on the valve blowing by mouth through the valve. I was surprised how hard I had to blow to make air pass through with the solenoid open. I then hit the fill switch to see if that made a difference having the solenoid energized and blew with no change. Its a wonder those valves let any flow by with as much pressure required when the valve is in an open state.
Now I used to have lots of trouble with the sprinkler system at my old house. Debris would get caught in the plunger of the solenoid and I had to remove the 6-8 screws to clean it out. I remembered there being a spring in the valve body to help hold back pressure when the valve was closed. And since these are designed to be in a high pressure environment I wondered if these springs are really needed in this low pressure, low flow application.
I started doing a little bench testing with the valve. I removed the solenoid actuator (black with wires running into it) by un-threading it then removed the 8 screws on the top, and separated the housing. I found the spring, plunger, etc. I then removed the spring and re-assembled it with a couple screws and tried blowing into it again with the manual valve open. It was considerably easier to blow through this time. I closed the valve and blew again, and it worked.
I jumped in the boat and plugged it in to make sure it responded the same while energized and it did!!
The difference between having the spring and not is huge! And in this low pressure environment you will have little if any flow by with out the spring.
I then did some bench testing.
All tests were performed with two 5 gallon buckets and timed from empty to fill of one 5 gallon bucket.

Configuration

Test 1. Factory set up. Time to fill 45sec GPH 391


Test 2. factory set up w/no solenoid spring. Time to fill 32sec GPH 604


Test 3. Factory pump no solenoid. Time to fill 28sec GPH 643


Notes: All tests conducted with 3/4 in hose. Results will vary with 1" factory hose.
Valve held in manual off with pump running no water leaking.

As you can see this is a fairly significant increase in flow from the factory set-up.
I originally posted this on the Moomba boards and had several other guys try this and have had good results on the water So I thought I would post up here and share the idea.
These pics were taken by another Moomba member to identify the process of spring removal and flow results
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Her are two pics of the flow through the unmodified valve.
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Here are two more pics of flow with the valve modified.

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I hope everyone find this post helpful and can use this little trick to help increase the flow in you systems.
After all it takes about 15 minutes and its free.

(Message edited by newty on February 26, 2009)

 
By Kevin K (supra) on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 4:52 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Nice
 
By Newty (newty) on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 4:56 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
btw all you dealers! I expect a little kick back when you charge your customers to upgrade their systems.
 
By John Scott (dreamer) on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 8:15 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Is there any downside to modifying this system? Will this work on an 02 SSV?
 
By Kevin Robinson (littletna) on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 8:28 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
How's the pressure when "underway"? If the switch is turned off will water flow by and still fill the tanks without the spring? If not then this is a great upgrade (especially for free)!!
 
By Nick (bird_dog0347) on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 8:55 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Umm... just so you are aware, that was in there and the pressure was there for a good reason. In my boat, we had a very hard time figuring out our "self filling ballast" when we first got the Supra. After tons of troubleshooting, replacing those valves, and lots of trips to the dealer we found the "problem" was our overly powerful fill pump. We had to close off the through hull pick up just a tad to slow down the pump so it did not over power the valves in their off positions.

So the problem was when we filled all three, the front takes longer as it is bigger. The rears would get full, we would turn them off, and yet they would still drain out the overflow. That would further slow down the front bag filling. It also made it impossible to partially fill any one bag as the pump would overpower the valves and keep filling all bags at once. This made it impossible to balance the weight side to side unless you filled it all, then drained to the level you wanted.

If you only remove the spring from the front, that might help fill that faster. But I would use caution removing them from the rear valves. At the very least, take it out and lake test it before you go out for a set.

 
By Newty (newty) on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 9:21 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Nick, We've addressed that. With this set up we ran the pump with the valves closed with no leaks. Also with the boat on plane and valves closed there were no leaks. That is with the factory pump.

John Scott I do not know how your ballast is configured but if they are the same as in the pics above it may work.

 
By DC Bateman (dcb) on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 9:48 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Those valves are way too restrictive especially if your running big sacks.. I took them out completly and put some tsunami pumps in their place. Also took the scupper intake off and put in a mushroom to keep it from self filling. It fills alot faster now and no need to get on plane to burp the system.
 
By Nick (bird_dog0347) on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 6:51 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Newty, sorry I was not clear... for testing, you need to be on the water and start to fill just one of the bags. It is likely all of them will fill if the pump is on. Not so much a problem when you are on plane and the pump is off as the pump is blocking the water from getting to the solenoids.
 
By Curt (curt489) on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 8:39 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Newty is right about the spring in the valve. I sell sprinkler equipment i deal with hydralic valves all the time i sometimes take the spring out a particular valve in order to decrease the friction loss across the valve . The only reason for the spring in the valve is to help the diaphram to close faster . Usually the 1" valve has trouble closing at much higher flow rates for example 30-35 gpm in your case your only running about 10gpm. Just take the spring right out and the diaphram lifts higher off the seating surface and you get more flow. BTW at 643gph you lose roughly about 1.7-2psi throught the valve. If you want more flow through the valve add another pump, increase the size of tubing or go to a larger sprinkler valve. Great find btw Newty. I also like taking stuff appart and modifying things to try and make improvements.
 
By moombadaze (moombadaze) on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 10:45 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
just so you all know, in the first picture the valve that you can see on the right has no spring in at that time-the one on the left did and no water came out on the valve without the spring in it--
thats my boat that Newty posted pictures of.

 
By Curt (curt489) on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 1:09 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Newty can you confrim that what moombadaze is saying is correct. Because i just tested a valve here at my shop took the spring out of the valve put in a 10psi regulator to simulate low psi pump. And the valve opened and closed fine at hight flow rates and low flow rates. Maybe if the valve is in installed in the wrong direction of flow it might not open.
 
By Patrick Fort (pfort) on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 1:41 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Very interesting post, thanks. I need to try this out as well.
 
By Newty (newty) on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 4:30 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Curt, sorry I guess I don't understand the question.
Both of them are in a factory configuration 1 with the valve and one w/o. The pump running the whole time both valves held back water when they were supposed to and both allowed water through when they were supposed to.
Nick, Moombadaze has tested both valves on plane and both performed as they should w and w/o the valves. I think that is what you are asking.

 
By Nick (bird_dog0347) on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 7:55 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
So long as it tests out ok, it sounds like a kick ass free mod. Maybe the pump is different in the 24SSV (a lot more to fill) and that is why it over powers the solenoids.
 
By KYLE SMITH (smithlsv) on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 3:24 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Very good info. Im down to give this a shot for sure.
 
By Patrick Fort (pfort) on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 5:27 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I modified mine today, didn't get a chance to get out on the water. I will get back on the results after I lake test it. My Supra 22 has 3 valves, one for each sack.
 
By Jason (loonytik) on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 12:36 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
So.....open the top of the valve....take out the spring....replace the top and you're done???
 
By Patrick Fort (pfort) on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 1:10 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Jason, that is what I did. I will see if it works out once I can get it on the lake. The only concern I have is if it will hold back the water when I have just one pump on and the others off. We shall see.

(Message edited by pfort on March 02, 2009)

 
By Nick (bird_dog0347) on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 2:03 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Patrick, I will volunteer to take a day off this week and go to the lake with you to test it.

It is supposed to be nice and in the 80's, but pretty windy but I would go with you, even though I hate the lake and wakeboarding, I would not want you to take on that burden by yourself. Let me know if I can help you handle the unenviable task of testing.

 
By Richard (nauty) on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 2:15 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Well if Patrick doesn't make it out to the lake this week, I plan on testing this out on my Supra this weekend (weather permitting). Nick, you and Patrick are more than welcome to join me.

(Message edited by nauty on March 02, 2009)

 
By Patrick Fort (pfort) on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 2:16 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Hey Nick, I will take you up on that offer, but this week will not work. I leave on Thursday to go snowboarding for the weekend. Lets see how the weather looks next week and maybe we can meet up at Lewi after work around 5:30-6. Daylight savings time is this Sunday so we gain an hour of sun next week. Richard just saw your post, let me know if you get out this week. Do you know if you have 3 valves on your ballast setup, similiar to mine and I am pretty sure Nick's as well?

(Message edited by pfort on March 02, 2009)

 
By Nick (bird_dog0347) on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 3:22 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
This weekend may or may not work for me. I am helping a buddy move on Saturday so it would have to be Sunday if I can get my mother in law to watch the kid for a few hours. Lets work out the details on DWB via PM.
 
By Patrick Fort (pfort) on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 7:31 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Nick, Sounds good
 
By Richard (nauty) on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 7:42 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Patrick, I do have the same 3 valve system as you do. I am hoping this works out because it takes for EVER to fill the front sac. In addition to the stock ballast pumps I've been using a portable fat sac pump to help fill the front sac. It's a pain, but its better than being tortured by looking at untouched butter while trying to get your ballast filled before someone else pulls into the cove

Hopefully the weather will cooperate this weekend. It's not looking promising with the wind forecast though. I have a new LF Lyman board on the way that I want to take for a spin. Nick, I'll shoot you a PM later this week. Patrick, you suck for going snowboarding. I am thoroughly jealous!

 
By Patrick Fort (pfort) on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 9:23 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Richard, we have a few open spots at our cabin if you want to make a last minute trip????

I just upgraded my center sac over the winter to the GG- ~ 1200 lbs. I also use a portable tsunami pump to help fill the center sac to speed it up. The only thing I worry about is if the valves will hold without the springs. It looks like the moombas they were testing on only use a 2 valve system by the pics? We just need to test it out and see what happens. I have had trouble with mine in the past when the solenoid would get stuck open, just had to clean out the solenoid spring. Either way, not much time invested and if it works out, awesome upgrade.

I want to get with you and try out the Lyman. I am waiting on a 09 Shane to arrive, so we can swap boards for a few sets.

 
By moombadaze (moombadaze) on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 9:32 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Patrick, i have the 3 valve system-in the pictures-the 3rd valve is hard to see as it goes off to the side-its in the shadows
 
By Patrick Fort (pfort) on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 12:33 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Ok, cool! I wasn't sure, thanks for the info.
 
By craig (cdtex14) on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 1:24 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Definetly good info... Also, check your hose that runs to the center sac. Mine was pinched in between the removable floor panel and the gas tank.... Patrick keep us tuned and have fun in WC.
 
By Patrick Fort (pfort) on Tuesday, March 03, 2009 - 3:25 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Craig will do! Good chance of some fresh powder this weekend!
 
By moombadaze (moombadaze) on Saturday, March 07, 2009 - 5:33 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
curt, the valve on my table in the pictures was a xtra valve i had, the valves in the boat were not removed when i removed the springs, the valves were still hooked up. they are not installed backwards-there is a little arrow to show direction of water flow on the valve itself. the 3rd valve in my system(thats very hard to see-its green in color) is a larger size--trying another mod to the system.
 
By Richard (nauty) on Sunday, March 08, 2009 - 8:08 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I tested this out today and the experiment was not a success. The issues was that after one sac finished filling and I turned off the switch for that sac, it still kept filling. The other issue I had was that the sacs also drained on their own through the intake valve, throughout the day.

Each time I would pull a rider up the inertia would force water back through the fill hoses, past the manifolds, and out through the intake. Without the spring to keep the manifold closed water would flow freely when the inertia was great enough to force it past. Perhaps this won't be the case for everyone being that my boat is 5 years old, but for me the modification didn't work out as I had hoped.

 
By Newty (newty) on Sunday, March 08, 2009 - 8:49 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Sorry to hear. I don't know what years they used the valves in my boat. Maybe they are different.
 
By Nick (bird_dog0347) on Monday, March 09, 2009 - 7:31 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I think the Supra's might use different valves than the Moomba. Pretty sure the fill pump is different as well.
 
By Richard (nauty) on Monday, March 09, 2009 - 8:20 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
The manifolds on my Supra are exactly as pictured above, the Orbit ones. The pump is a 2000 gph pump which should be the same for both lines. Perhaps the brand may have changed over the years?
 

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