check this out
|Now that is interesting can't wait for some detials on how it works|
|Wow, thats progressive.|
|pretty hard to hate on 'em now... this is my new favorite boat, but i guess there is still some details to work out...wonder how much it is?|
|btw i have always liked Epic boats, and more importantly Epic wakes....but for some reason ppl. like to hate on em...|
|Nice headline - let's see it work. Considering that the best a car can currently do is maybe 50 miles on a charge (full electric) - I would guess that translates to about 10 min in a boat. Let's see some details. Regardless of how this first generation works - I applaud the effort.|
|This should not be a huge surprise since Chris Anthony is also involved in this company |
|Very cool. It will be interesting to see what they price it at, and what it weighs.|
|Thats the thing though chuck. Its not fully electric. Its a hybrid. Very cool.|
|Hybrid cars recharge using momentum and braking -What charges the boat as it plows through water?|
|I'm sure all the big manufactures are looking at alternatives, but how cool is it that Epic is doing this!!!|
|Whoop whoop! |
Epic nay-sayers can suck on that.
|This is great!! Go Epic!|
|Does playing all those speakers decrease ride time?|
I guessed 10 Years and it was less than 2.
Many people said it will never happen. Its time for them to eat some crow.
Hat's off to EPIC. That is simply awesome. That's the first boat in YEARS that I would want. I hope this is not just Smoke and Mirror's and that this really work's. How come there was no HYPE leading up 2 this. IMO this is the biggest thing to hit the industry in YEAR's and not a word or it???
|i'm guessing they are using the lithium batteries....let's wait to see the price tag on this boat before you start the ticker-tape parade! |
very neat as a concept boat though.
|By BIZZ (bizz) on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 9:01 am:
|Here this should help everyone. |
|Wow, my hat goes off to the people at Epic. For a small start up company to pull off an industry first as major as this is very impressive.|
|Wow that's impressive!!|
|SO in the article it says it is entirely electric, and goes on to say it uses half the fuel. I guess I am lost. If it were entirely electric, wouldn't it use zero fuel?|
|By BIZZ (bizz) on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 9:45 am:
|If I remember right from testing. Don't hold me to this. There is a generator that keeps the batteries charged. The generator runs on fuel.|
|I Would asume that is true that it uses the same idea behind the new Chevy Volt|
|Pretty sure the drive train is an all electric system that has a generator to recharge the batteries. This means the system can run all electric, but when you are out on the water you can run the generator to keep the batteries charged. |
I am assuming it is similar to a plug in hybrid car.
|Interesting. Without regenerative braking, can it really be more efficient than a gas engine? I'd guess they're using NIMH batteries. I forget the exact number, but Gary at Epic told me a year ago that they're using like 23 batteries. |
This isn't a concept boat. They'll be selling them this year.
|It's a meaningless announcement until they post real specs. Until then it might as well be April 1. |
Oh btw, I just invented an over unity device that will power three homes and cost less than some other things.
|My understanding is there are 3 technologies |
Electric Car when the batteries go dead you are done
Hybrid Car has a gas engine and electric motor when the batteries are dead it runs of a tiny gas engine
The Volt technology uses and Electric motor all the time when the batteries go dead a
Generator kicks in to power the electric engine ( this is not new it has been used in Submarines and Train for years)
For the little I have read the Epic uses the Volt technology
|It is not used in trains. Trains do not use storage batteries.|
|True enough on trains but they do use Electric motors with generators supply the juice. there would not be much point to batteries in a train.|
|If it's true enough why did you post it?|
|Did a google search and found |
|"If it's true enough why did you post it?' |
Not sure how to respond to that??
Could I have been more clear sure. Are you just looking for an argument?
|"Are you just looking for an argument?" |
Not at all just that a lot of posters to this thread, and most other threads like it, really don't know how thing work so it's easy to blow smoke at a subject like this. Why did you post it if it isn't true?
|"Why did you post it if it isn't true?" |
So you are looking for an argumnet.
I just posted it very quickly and should have been more clear that trains use electric motors and disel engines to power the electric motors. The Volt and Epic tech goes one step further and gives you batterie operation before you go to the generator
|By rzap (zap) on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 11:36 am:
|"It is not used in trains. Trains do not use storage batteries". |
Apparently they did in 1912
Now that is not new
I was right and did not even know
|Is this a Volvo system? |
I would imagine that Epic worked with someone else to invent this thing.
1 hour of wakeboarding is about how long my morning set is, and that is usually the most gas consuming time in my boat. The rest of the time is spent putting around. This system would save a ton of gas money.
|Who gives a crap? Epic wakeboats is the shiznit!|
|This is pretty huge!! Here are some pics and a video. |
|How bout a blunt nose option for a 21' boat for length restricted waterways |
|I'm just really really impressed. Epic is just proving to be a great asset to the industry. Although I love my Mastercraft, there's no doubt that I will look at an Epic for my next boat.|
|Very cool innovation. I think it will be a success as long as the price is reasonable. |
So many things are possible, just too expensive to produce.
Way to go !!Good job for breaking the ice.
Still a ugly boat and even uglier tower.
|so an electric boat needs batteries right? batteries are heavy, arent they? Extremely heavy is good, isnt it? |
Why hasn't anyone tried this before?
|What Florida dealer????|
|I am surprised that they have been able to bring something like this to market. They are definitely a company committed to innovation. I have followed the Aptera project over time and it is clear that Chris Anthony and those involved are a very bright group who are also capable of thinking outside the box. I am sure the boat will be pricey, but it is a big step. I am curious to see all of the specs and see it in action. I wonder how big the generator is.|
|Actually diesel / gas over electric is a old idea that is just gaining popularity. Even CAT is gone to diesel over electric. Instant torque and very linear power curves. Actually it could be very good for allowing the designers to move the motors / props to the best locations for the wake. Or even using twin screws for mobility and performance. I see it being a industry changing move if it comes out well.|
|My next boat will be an EPIC. Not a hybrid. but the 23V without question! I know there are people who still hate them. But I couldnt care less.|
|Have they actually made it to market yet or have they just released a blurb to the press? All I see is a blurb because no one seems to be able to provide real specs for the boat. I'm trying not to be a naysayer but even the specs that Epic does provide don't really make sense to me. Any chance Epic can actually produce this boat for anyone to see? Seems to me this is right about when they should be taking orders.|
|That is a long time coming. Good for epic i really hope they make it.|
|By Jos (jtnz) on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 1:39 pm:
|Sweet, I've never been a fan of Hybrids, but the tech is improving significantly from the early attempts. Way to go Epic, changing the world of wakeboats.|
|Great job Epic. I wonder if those numbers are for full ballast? |
|They are taking orders on them and they've already sold a few i've been told... And I think the thing is gonna have dual props! Can't wait to see this in person! |
(Message edited by bnall on February 26, 2009)
|By Flux (flux) on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 3:23 pm:
|Well now you can see what a smaller company can do because they have less restrictions. |
I wish them the best on this because these are the types of risks that need to be taken right now.
Any retrofit kits coming??
|Does it come w/ a giant onan diesel generator for "G"'s stereo?|
|So sweet, I'm glad somebody is taking the initiative on this! The real wakeboarders understand the bigger picture and why this is so important. |
Just picturing a shored station with a solar charger and spending low coin on gas has me stoked
Is John Gardner for real? I thought he was a d-bag based on the tone of his posts, then his email turns out to be firstname.lastname@example.org, this stuff can't write itself.
|Wow! Put this nay sayer to shame. I didn't think that this could be done in a way that would significantly reduce fuel consumption. I expect at idle speeds the IC engine could turn off saving gas. |
I bet that using half the fuel for a 4 hour set doesn't include recharge power back at the garage, but still that's an amazing claim.
I wakesurf all the time. a there hour wakesurf set without spending a dine on gas would be the bomb. Two props could be very good for wakesurfing, especially if they can be independently controlled.
|I was one of the people saying it couldn't happen and I am glad I was wrong. |
Anyone have a price yet?
|EPIC WAKEBOATS |
Change we can believe in...
|I know I will get blasted but I am still a little skeptical. I don't think the price will ever provide a reasonable ROI. I bet the battery pack will costs thousands and need to be replaced in 3-4 years |
Why not just put in a reasonably priced diesel? Diesels average about 30-40% better fuel economy than gas engines while under load and have way more torque.
|Interesting! If itís so, anyone who is considering a Epic, or for that matter has a deposit on an Epic, should probably hold off a couple of months just to get the scoop on this thing. I could see a gasoline powered Epic taking a significant depreciation hit after this is released. It would be similar to buying a closed bow direct-drive just before V-drive wake boats came out. I hope there going to share this technology!|
|hey "G" I heard about it like a year and a half ago. To be honest i thought it could be done, I just never could see it go into production this fast. I thought it would be a prototype. Id really like to see this in a 21 foot model if they could get everything to fit in it. So this boat should weigh more, does that mean an even bigger wake? Id really like to see how they distributed all the extra weight. can we just go ahead and give away the innovation of the year award now?|
|I was a doubter. Now I believe!|
|Walt yeah the ROI on hybrid cars is even a tough one. When the batteries die what do we do etc? This is awesome and I like Epic boats and the fact they are fighting an up hill battle and coming out with something like this when we know CC and MC have the money to try. We shall see how well it works.|
|I'm not a real sentimental type but this had me thinking...and I try not to do that too much! What a cool time in technology we live in. Despite all the crap in the world, there is still people working to improve what we have to enjoy. Props to epic (pun) for pushing this through and I hope it works. Epic could fart and everyone would talk about it.They're doing something right!|
|Hats off to Epic. The devil is in the details so we will need to see the price and performance numbers. But, they have jumped ahead of the other manufacturers in tech. |
But damn, that is one ugly boat.
|This is sooo cool. Can you imagine saving 50% in fuel? That and it opens up some of those waterways that are so hard to get onto.....mmmmmmm|
|say you could run it on all electric... |
could you drive your boat on lakes that dont allow engines?
|Way to go Epic. I have been telling Wakecraft for over a year that a hybrid boat is the answer to $4 dollar a gallon gas prices. This just goes to prove that smaller companies are able to adapt and change much quicker then bigger ones.|
|They just got my attention. I've been looking to buy and Ive been hesitant to pull the trigger due to the economy - then this rolls along. Makes me kinda happy I waited! Good job Epic!|
Didn't see anyone else post this, yet, so thought I would. Check out the touch screen control.
|As I said in the other thread, congrats to Epic for being the first. Another mfgr may come along and do it better, but Epic is taking the biggest step in doing it first.|
|That may be the ugliest boat I have ever seen. Seriously.|
|Man I just don't understand the ugly boats comments I think that thing is pretty damn nice looking.|
|Maybe Mike is implying that the front of the boat, nose, and maybe the rear of the boat where all the speakers are, is not appealing. Those are the only two things that I hear the most on here.|
|I'd like an electric boat with no gas option to really simplify things. |
We usually only ride for <1 hour because it's a private lake. Lead batteries would actually be much less expensive than NiMH and could hold a longer charge.
Ideally I could put a photovoltaic panel on the roof of the dock and charge it all the time! Or I could do a quick charge off the 120v.
|Personally I would have absolutely no interest in a all electric boat or Car They are totally useless for anything but sort trips and short sets. |
"However a Ideally I could put a photovoltaic panel on the roof of the dock and charge it all the time! Or I could do a quick charge off the 120v." or like ganstar said in a previous post.
"Just picturing a shored station with a solar charger and spending low coin on gas has me stoked "
This would work well for most people since unlike a car the boat tends to sit on the lift for days at a time.
|there is also speed boat which runs on human fat |
|Huh... Sounds a lot like that guy lifetimewarranty had a peek into the future... |
I love being right! (ouch - I just hurt my arm patting myself on my back.
KC engineers - you've been owned.
(gangstar - John is a total a$$ - I seriously doubt he is a real engineer and my KC reference is to him and some other d-bag engineer from KC who was giving me a ton of crap about hybrid boats on two other strings. I posted Cris Crafts new hybrid boats that are about the same size of a wakeboat and they were pretty much owned then. I am surprised he is still opening his mouth)
|Check "the perfect powerplant string" |
I was discussing this with some of the most close minded engineers I have ever come across. I didn't think we were quite this close, though.
I did a search and it sounds like you guys have been discussing this for years here as well (I've only been on here for a little while)
"Why would you want a diesel wakeboard boat?
did you not see the 440hp and 825 lbs of torque?!?!?!?!"
This is a quote from Mad Child from 2005 -
Anyway - I think it's a cool option for our "green" future (whatever the heck that means)...
Petr - I saw that boat - pretty sick (literally and figuratively!)
Just watched the video --EPIC PLEASE HAVE THIS BOAT AT THE FOLSOM LAKE BOAT SHOW THIS YEAR!!!!! I NEED A TEST DRIVE.
(Message edited by lifetimewarranty on March 01, 2009)
|In their video you can see how heavy that back end is with all the batteries...its sittin low. looks like you'll need another 500-1K lbs in the bow to level her out. |
cant wait to see the specs and price on this.
|Solar panels will not have the juice needed for re-charging.|
|Cost is a big issue, has anyone seen a cost for this boat? |
Suppose the 23E cost $20,000 more than a regular 23. Also suppose that your per hour gas use is 5 gal/hour. Let's also say that the per gallon gas cost is $3.00 and that electricity is a third of the per hour gas cost.
So at (5 gal/hr)($3,00/gal) = $15 per hour for gas and then only $5.00 for electricity. Assume you never buy gas for the 23E. Using these assumptions you save $10.00 per hour with the electric drive.
When will pay back for the additional expense occur? The pay back should happen after $20,000/$10/hr = 2000 hours.
|Yes but this will be an AGA boat (Al Gore Approved) |
And you will be saving this planet from certain destruction
|Love the idea, going to need to have a whole 'nother level of tech certification for dealerships though.|
|Sharpen your pencil Show. PHEV stands for Plug in Hybrid: |
"1/4 the Price?
At $3 for a gallon of gas, driving a non-hybrid car costs 8-20 cents/mile (depending on MPG).
With a PHEV, your electric local travel drops to as little as 2-4 cents/mile.
We say above that you can fill up your "electric tank" for less than $1/gallon. How? Using the average U.S. electricity rate of 9 cents per kilowatt-hour (kWh), 30 miles of electric driving will cost 81 cents. If we optimistically assume the average US fuel economy is 25 miles per gallon, at $3.00 gasoline this equates to 75 cents a gallon for equivalent electricity. Compared to a regular hybrid's real-world 45 miles per gallon, it's effectively $1.20/gallon.
PHEVs are meant to plug-in at night. In many areas of the country, overnight power is available at a lower cost. As PHEVs start to enter the marketplace, we'll see increasing support from electric utilities, as they'll offer reduced nighttime rates to incentivize off-peak charging. In some areas where wind and hydropower is wasted at night, the rate can be as low as 2-3 cents per kWh. That's 20-25 cents a gallon."
|Let me say as an engineer Iím very impressed with what Epic has done, I didnít think anyone would step up and do it. I did list my assumptions and they are certainly open to debate. How about the $20,000 cost difference, I could be way off, right? My point is to ask the community to think about what the real value if any is. Again I donít want to detract from the achievement, really Iím impressed. |
So I'm off by $0.25 per "electric gallon", not a big deal. So then the net savings increases from $10 per operating hour to $11.25 and the payback time drops from 2,000 hours to 1,771 hours, right?
In my assumptions I have the boat pulling wakeboarders for an hour and then rushing back to the dock to recharge so dad doesnít revoke riding privileges for burning gas. If you ride for longer than an hour you lose some of the cost savings benefit operating just off batteries. The pay back use would go well past 2,000 hours. So with my assumptions 2,000 hours is an optimistic pay back interval.
Batteries have self discharge rate. Some battery technologies are better than others. NiCads are not too bad, Lithium technologies are generally better. If you charge up every day but only use the boat 20 hours a year youíre going to waste money spent needlessly charging batteries. Good charge management should help reduce these losses but there will be losses, that will show up on your electric bill. You lose very little just leaving your boat sitting around with a full tank.
|It maybe more expensive and work out to even in XXX amount of years but can you use it as some sort of tax break thing for giong "Green" with a boat?.... that might help make costs even out.|
|Gotta start somewhere!|
|lol, well with the wired article out now, and with an expected price tag of $150,000 I think we can finally put this thread to rest. |
Just as many of us said a long time ago, Hybrid is not a very good idea for a wakeboat.
I give seriously praise to Epic and the team that developed this concept boat. It is very neat and makes a statement about what is possible with todays technology.
With that said. Hybrids are still not a good idea for wakeboats. There are just too many downsides. (read above post for more). I figured the costs would be $20,000 more but since they are using lithium batteries its even greater than that.
neat concept, but this is an astronomical price to pay for this boat (150k for a 50k boat).
No one in their right mind is going to buy this boat.
Well maybe if you were so rich you couldn't figure out how to spend money fast enough!!!
(Message edited by tj_in_kc on March 10, 2009)
|Wow right it off before they even sell one. |
Might be a bit premature don't ya think.
If they can get them down to 70K and they are as good as advertised they will sell.
I am a HUGE fan of the Volt type technology! Not because of the whole Green fad but I would love to let the middle east drown in there oil! The world would be much safer place!!!!!!!!!!