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WakeWorld Discussion Board » >> Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles Archive » Archive through March 18, 2009 » Homemade FAE « Previous Next »
By Joe Sellhausen (joesell) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 3:54 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Before anyone gets crazy, Plan A is getting in on the group buy. But judging from the past group buys, $50 off isn't going to do it for me.

I looked through a lot of posts last night. It seemed like people have made them already.

I wondered how the homemade one's have held up?
How they might do it different now?
If anyone has any pointers, or pic's?

Thanks in advance, Joe

 
By jb (john211) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 7:22 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
The product is covered by patent. There's a thread a long time back on that subject (although it may have been deleted). But if you do find the thread, do not be deceived, there is no home use exception, period, nor an 'experimental use' exception that would be applicable to you.
 
By Montgomery (lovin_the_wake) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 7:56 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Joe, I'm building more of an exhaust turn down setup so my exhaust will exit much lower than the factory setup basically just to reduce noise I'll post up some pics when its complete
 
By Jason B (jason_b) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 8:06 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
That's crap, you can build ANYTHING you wish, you just can't sell it.
There is absolutely NO law against fabricating your own ANYTHING as long as you do not profit from it...then it becomes illegal if patented.

 
By C.I.E... AL (allen) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 8:12 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
yep what Jason said
 
By Michael Hunter (mhunter) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 8:57 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I think Jasons right also.
 
By C. R. (crushing76) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 9:32 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Mongomery,

I'd like to see how that turns out too.. Seems like I saw one on here last year sometime? I'm interested in that project for sure!

X3 on what Jason said.

There are patents on almost EVERYTHING at this point... You wouldn't be able to build anything for yourself if that were the case.

 
By Hate N Pain (hatepain) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 11:14 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
LOL...You can't build it and use it for yourself Even if it were true how the hell would he know you have it come to your house? C'mon.
 
By Ken Land (bulletlines) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 11:40 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
It has always been my understanding that anything can be built for your own use: if it has a patent, then you cannot profit it from it. You can build thousands of an item with a patent, and give them away (does not mean buy this and we will give you this (item with patent) for free). If you want to profit from it, all you have to do is make it 10% different than the claim in the patent..

Ken Land
Bullet Lines
www.bulletlines.com

 
By C.I.E... AL (allen) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 12:28 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Ken, They can patent the idea and then the 10% rule goes out the window, We have a ton of IP's and patents and people cant even think about using one of our ideas (to profit) with out us knowing about it.
 
By ben (riverside) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 12:28 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I made my own,and it is made out of epoxy.
PITA to build and very time consuming.
I haven,t tested it yet,but it feels solid.I,m not sure about the rod though.
BTW ken,s lights are also installed.Thanx ken.






Upload
Upload
Upload
Upload

 
By "G" (grant_west) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 12:37 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
"Sparky J" made one last year it came out great.
Do a search for it.
Ben: Thats awesome I like the idea of making it out of Epoxy. You could make some cool shape's/bend's. Any more picks of how you did your's? I think I just found my next project. Carbon Fiber FAE.

 
By packrat (packrat) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 12:49 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Has anyone made or seen a Turned down exhaust or Fresh Air Exhaust type of unit on a Centurion with a Switchblade. Appears you can't have both.
 
By ben (riverside) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 1:11 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
i didn,t make any pics of the building process but i made a mold out of expanded polystyrene and laminated it with epoxy/cloth,..once hardened pour acetone on the polystyrene and the mold dissolves.

I shaped/sanded the mold oval and slightly upwards,to get the T out of the water.
The T has a narrow front and a wider and lower backside.The idea is to eliminate spray water downwards.
But as mentioned it is not tested yet,...maybe i will lose the complete unit..LOL.That break wire will not hold it from sinking at 22mph.

Anyway it was a fun project.I,ll cross my fingers,the boat is too noisy.


Upload

 
By Joe Sellhausen (joesell) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 1:43 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Thanks for all the replies. I'm really not trying to take anything away from the folks at FAE. They have a great product, it just seems like too much money for me right now.

Ben, your set-up looks sick. I was thinking about underwater led's also.

About the FAE, where did you get your stainless mounting flanges from?

 
By ben (riverside) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 2:03 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
broken 07 mc stainless exhaust tips that lost the MC sign (bafler?),took them out of the garbage at the dealer.I did some grinding and it fits perfect.

(Message edited by riverside on February 19, 2009)

 
By "G" (grant_west) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 2:08 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Ben: I can't see any reason why it would not work if its attached correctly and the Exhaust tube is in the direct line of the rudder. IMO all the FAE's look like they would fall right off so your's look's no diffrent.

How did your form the expanded polystyrene.
I have seen the stuff Part A part B expanded polystyrene. Do you have the name of the stuff you used and any tips on making one

 
By jb (john211) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 5:41 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
no what jason said.

truly, word.

registered u.s. patent attorney, reg. no. 35,064, of march 29, 1992.

 
By Kenny (ghostrider_2) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 6:03 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Grant, I know if you do it, you will put it out in great detail for all of us so that we con avoid some mistakes along the way, not to mention you boat is already 'PIMP'N"!!
 
By gangstar (joe_crawley) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 6:10 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
"They can patent the idea and then the 10% rule goes out the window, We have a ton of IP's and patents and people cant even think about using one of our ideas (to profit) with out us knowing about it."

You can't patent an idea, that is the first subject is patent law 101. Care to list any of the "ton" of patents or "IP's" you own?

 
By Sparky Jay (wake_upppp) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 6:18 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
No patent infringement worries as long as you don't try to sell/market what you build. I built mine although I shortened it a bit from the original size in the pics. All hand built, welded then powder coated.
Upload
Upload

 
By Randy (dudeman) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 6:53 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Awesome job Sparky.
 
By C. R. (crushing76) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 8:32 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Packrat,

I emailed FAE and the guy replied with something very close to: There isn't and most likely never will be an FAE developed that is compatible with the switchblade... BUMMER.


I wonder how crucial it is that the downspout be directly in line with the prop? I ONLY surf regular, so I could probably make something that goes off to the dark side???

 
By Brett Treiber (pc_sledge) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 5:55 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Awesome craftsmanship!. I would be hesitant to put something like that on my boat. Doesn't that affect the wake at all. It seems like it could generate extra turbulence with the water having to flow around it which would soften the wake? Also could someone explain the advantages to this set-up as compared to a factory set-up. It doesn't seem that there would be much of a difference. I assume it is supposed to get exhaust further away from the boat and make things quieter? Is this more of a wakesurf specific enhancement?
 
By packrat (packrat) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 8:54 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Yes C.R. that is the answer I got from the Fresh Air Exhaust guy too.

He was kind of nasty and a smart alec about it.

Funny, since I bought a FAE from him on my last boat. Guess business is so good he doesn't have to consider new products.

 
By Shawn (helinut) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 10:16 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Wanna build one of those for me Sparky? I won't pay you that way we don't have to worry about patent infringement. :-) Nice job!
 
By Rob Cates (hemihauler) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 10:54 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Sparky where did you get the flanges that you used to connect it.
 
By Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 11:39 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I want to know who builds Sanger's, Malibu's downturned exhaust tips? They look and work pretty good, but I can't find any. The one company went out of business or stopped using the web to market them. Anyone have a link?
 
By David Williams (wakeworld) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 12:57 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I'm no attorney, but I just wanted to give a heads up to some in this thread that may not be aware that they may be setting themselves up for patent infringement liability. Interpret as you will...

35 U.S.C. 271 Infringement of patent.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States, or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.
(b) Whoever actively induces infringement of a patent shall be liable as an infringer.

 
By Craig (yosquire) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 1:18 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
also wondering the answer to this question
"Sparky where did you get the flanges that you used to connect it."

 
By swass (swass) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 1:32 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
This is kinda tricky stuff. My mom happens to be a patent attorney, so I'll pass on what she told me:

His site says "patent pending." That means he does not have a patent yet. This means one of two things: His patent application is still in the queue (there's a several year backlog), or he already knows he's not going to get one, and he's trying to scare people.

"That's crap, you can build ANYTHING you wish, you just can't sell it. There is absolutely NO law against fabricating your own ANYTHING as long as you do not profit from it...then it becomes illegal if patented."

That is 100% false. It is illegal, but likely won't be enforced - simply because the patent holder is unaware of the infringement.

For the sake of argument, lets say he has a patent. If you copy his product for your personal use, does that infringe on his patent? Technically - yes. But, in order for the patent holder to take action, he/she has to know you have this product. If you only make one and use it on your boat, how would the patent owner ever know you're using it? If you make more of them and sell them (or even give them away), that's when you increase the likelihood that the patent owner will "discover" you.


(Message edited by swass on February 20, 2009)

 
By David B. (dabell) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 1:36 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
^^^ Then you post it to a public forum. Everyone knows you have one now. :-(
 
By David Williams (wakeworld) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 1:56 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post

quote:

If you copy his product for your personal use, does that infringe on his patent? Technically - yes. But, in order for the patent holder to take action, he/she has to know you have this product. If you only make one and use it on your boat, how would the patent owner ever know you're using it?



You post it on a public forum, attach your name to it and announce your infringement to everyone!

 
By swass (swass) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 2:14 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
His admission means nothing, since there's no patent to infringe upon.

(Message edited by swass on February 20, 2009)

 
By jb (john211) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 2:30 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Larry has a patent (U.S. Pat. No. 7,387,555 - issued June 17, 2008) and, who knows, may have more applications in the works too.

I've spoken with Larry, and I shared with him that I'm a patent attorney (I'm not his patent attorney, nor solicited his work, but said that, I like buying patented product because it's like a union guy buying union-made product or, like all of us ... hopefully, and when we can and the difference is not too lop-sided ... buying american-made product).

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/649213.html

As far as Larry's site being out-of-date with the patent information, that's typical of my clients too. They will spend a lot of money early in the project to have molds made (or packaging, labels and advertising made up) with the legend 'patent pending' or, really, the more correct 'patent applied for.'

Then later when the patent issues, they're slow to go back and re-do all the earlier-done indications of patent pending because that's an effort which saps valuable time +/or money.

Many of you above, you should know ... well, you should know ... what you don't know. Among other things, there's sort of a standard playbook for plaintiff attorneys on how to proceed with certain situations (I'm not one of those, I'm a sole-practicing patent-trademark-copyright specialist).

And the playbook says here, file an action joining all the parties who've admitted to direct infringement [271(a)] (indeed, bragged about it, or showcased it, online). Assert entitlement to money damages calculated on all the un-counted private infringements who were encouraged/learned to infringe from publicly-disclosed materials (eg., online forums) under the sub-sections for inducing [271(b)] or contributing [271(c)] infringement. That is, those sub-sections make the named joint parties liable not only for their own one-single infringement but for also the collective infringement of those others not in the action. And that's only the beginning. Proceed with experts testifying how the teaching to infringe spread like wildfire and is rampant to the amount of ... well, about any number that can be plucked out of the air. Pursue treble damages for the infringement being 'willful.' Pursue attorney fees for other conduct being 'exceptional.' Collect from the richest jointly-liable party first, working backwards until satisfied to the poorest. If one jointly-liable party is ordered to pay a disproportionate share of the total award, it's now his or her problem to collect proportionate shares from the other jointly-liable parties.

For all the Davids above, I'm usually in the position defending David against Goliath. And all I ask of my David after he has dug a hole is, 'don't dig any deeper.'

(OK, mixed metaphors at the end. This is a disclaimer ... I am not advertising, and will not have anything further to do with this, not for anybody).

Duke engineering.
Ohio State advance degree.
Washington Univ. Law degree.

Admitted to Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Missouri state law license authorities.

 
By David Williams (wakeworld) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 2:36 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I was making the assumption that he does and I think that might be true by looking at Patent #7387555. However, (and, again, I'm no attorney) I believe that once a patent is granted it is retroactive back to the application date. You might be able to check that out with your mom, but it seems I remember hearing that somewhere.

Anyway, like I said before, I can't tell you if it's wrong or right, but some might want to check into it before they post certain things on here.

 
By swass (swass) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 2:40 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Well, that changes the game.
 
By 882001 (882001) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 2:40 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
if he sued a diy guy off one of these sites. doubtful he would ever sell another one.
 
By daniel (cowwboy) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 2:41 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
So I want to get this straight. He has patented the idea of putting the exhaust below the waterline?
Isn't that what i/o and outboard manufacturers been doing for years? Or is it the idea of doing the y exhaust with the oval outlet off a inboard?

 
By daniel (cowwboy) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 2:46 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Ok just read the patent info.
By the looks of the patent info he can sue every i/o and outboard manufacturer for infringement of having the exhaust go out in the prop wash.

 
By Craig (yosquire) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 2:55 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Too bad we just killed off the people who were contributing to this thread. Building an FAE was an interesting topic. But at last, censorship prevails.
 
By swass (swass) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 2:59 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Censorship????? Please. Who's being censored?

This isn't about censorship, it's about stealing intellectual property.

That's a good question, Dave. It didn't occur to me to ask.

(Message edited by swass on February 20, 2009)

 
By David Williams (wakeworld) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 3:24 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Censorship??? Did you even read the thread before you put your foot in your mouth?
 
By David B. (dabell) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 3:40 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
You can definitely tell it's the non-boating season here in the good ole USA!!!! Censorship
 
By Show (bigshow) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 3:43 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I've spoken with, exchanged emails and met Larry Mann, inventor of FAE, heck of a guy. Larry has been supporting grass roots wakesurfing events for three years that I know of. He has supported events that I've run. That support is the kind of thing I appreciate and respect from industry.

I had FAE on my old boat. FAE is the best addition that Iíve ever put on my boat. The documentation and Installation instructions for FAE are of very good and if you had problems, Larryís a good guy and would help or make whatever problems you had right. I posted a step by step installation on the WW wakesurf form a couple of years ago. http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/559019/433197.html

I could see the occasional tinkerer wanting to roll theyíre own. To be honest FAE isnít very expensive; I donít think itís worth the effort to roll your own.

 
By g (roomservice) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 3:52 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Joe, dont build it!, buy it from FAE!

(there, my butt's covered)

 
By Scott Legge (w00taz) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 4:12 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
yea so I'm not a lawyer either but couldn't you do this w/o the "third piping"???? making an H or just || ? I'm not bashing Larry, his idea is great but if someone won't manufacture something for people with switchblades for example or some oddball type of boat (aztec crow or toyota epic??) that it would be illegal for them to make their own would be insane. At least if I were on the jury I wouldn't make the poor crow/epic owner pay up. The system is broken if someone patents something but refuses to make an iteration of the patent for your specific application.


What is claimed:

1. A boat exhaust system comprising a boat comprising at least one engine mounted inside the boat, such that the engine produces an exhaust gas, at least one engine exhaust outlet, and at least one propeller mounted upon a propeller shaft wherein the propeller shaft exits the boat's hull under the boat, such that the propeller generates a propwash; a waterline relative to the boat; and an exhaust injection system comprising injection piping, such that the injection piping has a first end connected to the engine exhaust outlet, and a second end positioned below the waterline, aft of and generally in line with the propeller, such that at least a portion of the exhaust gas is exhausted through the second end, in proximity to the propwash, the injection piping comprising a first pipe section, such that the first pipe section is attached to a first engine exhaust; a second pipe section, such that the second pipe section is attached to a second engine exhaust; and a third tee section, attached to the first pipe section, the second pipe section, and the second end, such that the third tee section may pivot away from the boat.

2. A boat exhaust system comprising a boat comprising at least one engine mounted inside the boat, such that the engine produces an exhaust gas, at least one engine exhaust outlet, and at least one propeller mounted upon a propeller shaft wherein the propeller shaft exits the boat's hull under the boat, such that the propeller generates a propwash; a waterline relative to the boat; and an exhaust injection system comprising injection piping, such that the injection piping has a first end connected to the engine exhaust outlet, and a second end positioned below the waterline, aft of and generally in line with the propeller, such that at least a portion of the exhaust gas is exhausted through the second end, in proximity to the propwash, the injection piping comprising a first pipe section, such that the first pipe section is attached to a first engine exhaust; a second pipe section, such that the second pipe section is attached to the boat; and a third tee section attached to the first pipe section, and the second pipe section.}

 
By Sparky Jay (wake_upppp) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 4:21 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Thats why you don't copy things exactly. Just change a little sumpthin and you're good to go. Mine isn't exactly the same. You guys think I would post it if I was worried about it? LOL. I have a good friend that writes his own patents. Has more than 35 worldwide, I am aware of the laws. Anyways to answer the question about the flanges, they are just 1/4 plate with a piece of pipe welded on. Then drilled and countersunk and mounted to the same spot the flaps where. I have $200 and four hours in mine but I like my design better.
 
By Scott Legge (w00taz) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 4:24 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
the patented version is better imho for if it hits a log or something like referenced in the patent but hey man looks good!
 
By Sparky Jay (wake_upppp) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 4:46 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Here's a pic


Upload

 
By Sparky Jay (wake_upppp) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 4:50 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Trust me if I hit something submerged, It will swing up, but that's gonna be the least of my worries/damage if I do...
 
By jb (john211) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 4:53 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
uhh ??? sparky jay ??? or OJ ....
 
By Scott Legge (w00taz) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 6:50 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
It won't swing up because its hard mounted to the swimstep. The FAE version has the rubber flanges in a different spot so the downpipe can fold up but not hard mounted to the swimstep brace.
 
By Jeremy Hawkinson (hawk22) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 7:40 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
sparky jay, that thing looks pretty sweet. If I can do it for 200, it just might be worth it. Does anyone know if there is a specific design to the airflow or is it just the basic idea of taking the 2 exhausts funneling to one and down to redirect it into the water therefore creating less right behind the boat? Do you lose anything with this type of system? any power loss or drag?
 
By Sparky Jay (wake_upppp) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 8:57 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Scott, if you notice the braces are angled and are thin on purpose. They are also bolted to the top bracket so as to allow a swivel point. Just enough to support it under normal load but would fold right up with an impact. My bet is, and I hope I never find out, is that the whole thing pulls right out from the rubber hoses and the braces fold like tin foil. And like I said earlier, this would be the LEAST of the damage. Prop shaft, strut, prop, rudder, would all be wasted before it reached the exhaust.

Jeremy, you are right. Just the basic design of two into one, exiting below the water line. A couple MPH on top end is lost but power feels the same otherwise. Obviously a slight increase in back pressure as well which could contribute to added low end torque.

 
By Sparky Jay (wake_upppp) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 9:14 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Helinut, no plans on building any more. LOL. When people ask about it, and quite a few have, I never mention I built it. I refer them to FAE's website, and tell them all about the advantages and what a great addition it is to the boat...
 
By Jeremy Hawkinson (hawk22) on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 1:25 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Whats the diff between turn down exhaust and FAE?
 
By Sparky Jay (wake_upppp) on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 9:36 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I don't think the turned downs exit under water??
 
By gangstar (joe_crawley) on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 2:11 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
"Duke engineering.
Ohio State advance degree.
Washington Univ. Law degree. "

Don't F with that guy, he went to the ohio state university.

 
By Larry Mann (niap101) on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 5:19 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Yes, we need to change our website statement from patent pending to Patented and Patent Pending; thanks for reminding me.

We can make an FAE that will fit just about every inboard ski boat in existence, including the Toyota Epic. We have over 500 FAE installed with over 400 inboard ski boats in our database. We now also make FAE for the Malibu manual and power wedge as well. If we could make them work with the Switchblade we would do that as well.

FAE is a founding member of the American Wake Surf Association. When you purchase an FAE you can enjoy your boat safely and quietly and support the ongoing protection and development of our sport.

Larry Mann
Inventor and Owner of Fresh Air Exhaust
Patent # 7387555

Upload

(BTW - you can purchase a license to build your own for $200)

 

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