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WakeWorld Discussion Board » >> Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles Archive » Archive through March 18, 2009 » things to look for in a battery « Previous Next »
By C. R. (crushing76) on Tuesday, February 17, 2009 - 8:42 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I talked to a friend of mine, and I can get the hook up on these brands...

He is recommending AGM type batteries.

Trojan

Full River

Oddysey (sp?)

What specs are most important? I'm mainly looking at the Amp Hours measurement (AH).

Any feedback on these brands?

Are there any major benefits to buying two 6v batteries and wiring them in series to show 12v?

Thanks.

 
By Sam (wake1823) on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 6:38 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
"Are there any major benefits to buying two 6v batteries and wiring them in series to show 12v?"

best amp hr/$ ratio.

6 volt batteries seem to take cycling down alot better than 12 v for soem reason. You can really drain 6 volts down over nad over again, and they will still last.

 
By "G" (grant_west) on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 7:10 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
IMO a true AGM battery is better than a deep cycle Golf cart(2 6 volt battery's linked together to make 12V) The only thing golf carts have gong for them IMO is they are cheep. THATS IT.
Deep cycle AGM don't have any problems cycling. regular AGM or SLI batterys like a RED optima
(Starting Lighting & Ignition) battery's don't like to be cycled and can be killed with a few times beeing brought down to zero and brought back ,that's why you want a Marine or Deep cycle battery. They are made to be discharged down low and brought back

Deep cycle battery's don't have the cranking amps that a SLI battery's have. But guess what you don't need a SLI battery to start your boat. A deep cycle will work perfict. many have been doing it for years.

So to answer your question I would say SIZE vs Amp hrs. Battery's are getting stronger(more amp hr's) and smaller. I have heard good things about the Oddysey.

Now b4 everyone chime's in on what battery is best
keep in mind that how one treat's a battery can have a huge effect on how it performs.

Example: One person might chime in and say Optimas are no good Bla Bla Bla. The next person might chime in and say they are the best battery in the world! WHY? It's how they are charged and recharged. A smart regulator and smart charger can keep from destroying your battery and improve the life and performance. Each person's battery draw is diffrent. What works good for you might not work as good for me. IMO EVERY boat should have a minimum of 3 battery's yup they should come from the factory with 3 batterys. Now if you NEVER EVER EVER listen to your system with the key or boat off then I guess your fine with 2. But let me just say this if you never chill out on your boat and listen to some music and kick back you are a Nazi and you should try it. LOL

1 to start and 2 for the stereo. A smart regulator and a smart charger that you plug your boat into every night and a electronic battery combiner. Even for a stock small stereo. If you have anything larger than stock your battery bank should grow. IMO 110 Amp hrs is what one should have for a stock system.

(Message edited by grant_west on February 18, 2009)

 
By Sam (wake1823) on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 8:16 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
"The only thing golf carts have gong for them IMO is they are cheep."

These type of batteries are designed to take a beating, both current draw and physical beating. I worked at a golf course back in H.S., we put thsoe carts thru hell, in the three years I worked there, we never "broke" a battery.

On top of that these batteries are designed to power soemthing for 8-10 hours straight without a recharge...on a daily basis.

There is no added benefit to an AGM or gell battery when used in a deep cycle application, unless you have an unorthodox mounting situation ( batt on on side, upside down)

(Message edited by wake1823 on February 18, 2009)

 
By Sam (wake1823) on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 8:18 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I agree your chargig routine is key to how long your batt's life will be.
 
By Nacho (denverd1) on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 8:51 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Sam, isn't there 6 six-volt batteries in a cart? You're not really abusing them that much because the bank is so large. goes along with what Grant is saying, if your bank is large enough and charged properly, you can discharge and recharge without a problem.

Battery technology is getting pretty advanced. smaller footprints and big amp/hrs.

 
By "G" (grant_west) on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 9:53 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Sam: Golf cart battery's work great in a GOLF CART
The power that is drawn from them and in a golf cart is regulated.
In a Large stereo the draw can be much more and more often and un regulated than a Golf cart battery is made for.

You can argue this point all day long from your computer and come up with chart's and graph's showing this battery is better than that battery and crazy story's Here on W/W people saying they power their system for 8 hrs a day for 4 days long at full volume Bla Bla Bla. It's all B.S. IMO get a few Deep cycle AGM's and Fo-Gettt-Abouuut-It!

Im not saying the GC's are junk or anything Im saying that they work great cheep power gets the job done. But IMO there are better option's.

 
By C. R. (crushing76) on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 10:26 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
G,

What do you mean when you say "SIZE vs Amp hrs."?

The physical size of the battery?

He can get me the Trojan scs225 12-v for around $120 per.... I'm thinking about 3-4 of them???

http://www.trojan-battery.com/products/marine.aspx

 
By Sam (wake1823) on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 10:42 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
^^^Those specs pale in comparision to the t-105 ( 6v) and roughly the same cost.

Grant, why spend the extra money on an AGM/Gel battery?

Only a very small percentage of peolpe will ever have higher than a 150 amp spike, where you migh argue the construction of one battery can handle it better thant the other.

 
By Sam (wake1823) on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 10:46 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Nacho, battery bank size is a mute point. You can have 10 batt's or 2 batt's, if your draining the bank down to 20% capacity on a regualr basis, even deep cycle batt's will fail. the 6v batteries are specifically designed to drop down to these levels and be re charged over and over agin.

Go to a legit battery distributor...they'll even tell you not to run down 12v deep cycle batt's past 50% or you will significantly reduce the batt's life.

 
By "G" (grant_west) on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 11:05 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
The way a battery delivers power think of it like this.

Battery "A" is a Golf Cart it delivers power like a tractor. Slow and Strong and can be discharged low, but cant keep up with fast spikes and draw's
Battery "B" SLI AGM battery's (Red Optima) It delivers power fast But runs out of juice faster. Can't be discharged low or it will be dammaged.
Battery "C" Deep cycle AGM (Blue Optima) It delivers power Faster than the Golf Cart close to what a SLI battery will do but will go the distance.

1 optima blue top is like 55 Amp hrs and cost like $200. Im not sure what the exact cost of the Trojan's are but you will need like 5 blue top Optimas to = 2 Trojan's

IMO I don't want to EVER have to check or fill the water in the Golfcart battery's. The AGM's allow you to mount the battery's out of the way on their side. IMO it's easyer to stuff smaller battery's in the nooks and cranny's then having 2 Large golf cart's that you need to mount in a location that you can get to and check water levels.

If you have a small alternator you can split the battery bank of 5 batterys, Example bank A has 3 battery's bank "B" has 2 battery's. This way you don't need a huge alternator to charge up.Its hack but you can charge 1 bank at a time. You cant do this with a Golf Cart Battery bank. Both golf carts are linked together to make 12 volt's. Try hooking your small alternator to a golf cart battery bank and run it down low and watch what happens.

But don't let me talk you out of anything. If you wann run them go for it. Like you said most people 's system dosent pull 150 AMP's LOL Have you ever hooked a Amp gauge you a Meidum to small system

 
By "G" (grant_west) on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 11:07 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
The way a battery delivers power think of it like this.

Battery "A" is a Golf Cart it delivers power like a tractor. Slow and Strong and can be discharged low, but cant keep up with fast spikes and draw's
Battery "B" SLI AGM battery's (Red Optima) It delivers power fast But runs out of juice faster. Can't be discharged low or it will be dammaged.
Battery "C" Deep cycle AGM (Blue Optima) It delivers power Faster than the Golf Cart close to what a SLI battery will do but will go the distance.

1 optima blue top is like 55 Amp hrs and cost like $200. Im not sure what the exact cost of the Trojan's are but you will need like 5 blue top Optimas to = 2 Trojan's

IMO I don't want to EVER have to check or fill the water in the Golfcart battery's. The AGM's allow you to mount the battery's out of the way on their side. IMO it's easyer to stuff smaller battery's in the nooks and cranny's then having 2 Large golf cart's that you need to mount in a location that you can get to and check water levels.

If you have a small alternator you can split the battery bank of 5 batterys, Example bank A has 3 battery's bank "B" has 2 battery's. This way you don't need a huge alternator to charge up.Its hack but you can charge 1 bank at a time. You cant do this with a Golf Cart Battery bank. Both golf carts are linked together to make 12 volt's. Try hooking your small alternator to a golf cart battery bank and run it down low and watch what happens.

But don't let me talk you out of anything. If you wann run them go for it. Like you said most people 's system dosent pull 150 AMP's LOL Have you ever hooked a Amp gauge you a Meidum to small system.

One last thing. If I had a small system lets say on a Pontoon boat where I wanted to not hook it up to a charging system Shore power only. And I had lots of room to spare and was on a tight budjet
Hell yea I would run some golf carts

 
By C. R. (crushing76) on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 11:34 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Sam,

Where do you get that the 6v t-105 is roughly the same cost?

G,

it looks like this battery (just by reading the specs) is much better than the optima blue top...

Trojan scs225 12-v ESPECIALLY for $80 bucks less per??

http://www.trojan-battery.com/products/marine.aspx

 
By Nacho (denverd1) on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 1:51 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Sam, not moot point at all. I agr}ee, you discharge to a certain point with ANY battery regularly, it wil damage the batt.

So, let's say 8 hrs of a system playing at 50% volume leaves you with a 60% remaining charge. Now try that with half the batteries. You will damage your batts and your charging system.

IMO its all about the size of the battery bank. Why else would we discuss Amp/Hrs???

 
By Sam (wake1823) on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 2:13 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
a 20 % remaning charge is roughly 11.0 volts on one battery, a 20% remaining charge on 20 battery bank is 11.0 volts.

I agree, the large bank will allow you to "play " longer, but that's not my point.


CR, you cna find the t-105's form a local distributor for roughly $145/per batt.

That 12 v you link is still a flodded battery ( means fillign with water on a regular basis)

My point is a 6 v golf cart battery can take being drawn down to 20% life....a tradiditonal 12 v deep cycle cannot repeadetly.

 
By David "Pootie Tang" (colombiansurfer) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 3:02 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
So why not go to Advance Auto Parts store and get the deep cycle marine bat. for about half the cost?
 
By C. R. (crushing76) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 3:19 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I want an AGM...

12 Volt...

And at least 100 amp hours...

 
By Brett Yates (polarbill) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 4:08 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Check out the Deka Seamate line of AGM batteries. They make a bunch of different sizes and have a far better performance:$$$ value than Optimas. In my opinion Optima's are insanely overpriced and are not made like they use to be since Johnson Controls started playing a part in it. For example: you should be able to get a group 24 AGM marine Deka that is pretty close in size to an optima group 34 for less than $150/ea. They have a rating of 79 20AH versus 55 for an Optima and are 50-75 less a battery.
 
By C. R. (crushing76) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 4:25 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Actually, my dealer just informed me of the Deka brand... He says they are pretty good and can also get me a good price on them...

Any feedback on the Deka from someone that has used them?

 
By Brett Yates (polarbill) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 4:54 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I am a dealer for Deka but don't have personal experience with a huge stereo and them. Our business is in the Heavy-Duty, industrial and Fleet business and our customers have been very happy with them. I would guess our warranty percentage is less than 1%. When testing them I have found them to almost always be underrated as well.
 
By Terry H. (x45er) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 7:10 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I second what Brett is saying. I'm involved in the battery industry and we supply the lab equipment they used to test and develop their batteries. Deka (East Penn) makes a quality product. Enersys (Odessey) and Concorde (lifeline) are great too. As Brett said, most are underrated.

I use lifeline. I've visited all of these factories and have tested batteries from alot of different manufacturers.

If your wanting a high current, long lasting battery stay away from the spiral wound cell design.

 
By C. R. (crushing76) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 8:25 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
^^^ Spiral wound cell design!!!??? WTF? Does that have anything to do with 1985 and a flux capacitor!?

Thanks for the feedback guys! Some of it was over my head, but I got what I needed...

 
By Terry H. (x45er) on Thursday, February 19, 2009 - 9:19 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Spiral wound design (like the blue top) is made from a thin expanded metal lead plate. During plate manufacturing small burrs are left on the plates which can short out the cell.

Since the plates are thin the welding tabs on said plates are thin as well. This is where the cells are welded together to series each 2 volt cell to make a 12 volt battery. This is what carries the current.

Think of wire size....the more current you want to run the bigger the wire. So in a high current application thicker plates are desirable.

Flux capacitor????? That's a little harsh. Just trying to help someone out and since I'm in the battery industry and sit on the BCI tech committee for marine batteries which sets the sets the testing standards I thought I could provide insight on your question about Deka.

Good luck with whatever you buy

 
By C. R. (crushing76) on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 12:02 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Terry,

Appologies if I came off harsh. Not AT ALL my intention. I'm pretty much a dummy when it comes to tech talk about batteries... Obviously.

A flux capacitor is what they used in "back to the future" for the Delorian to transport Michael J Fox back to warn Doc about... Well, I was trying to make a joke.

Does the Deka line have the "spiral wound design" that you speak of? On paper, it looks like a better battery all around than an Optima.

 

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