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WakeWorld Discussion Board » >> Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles Archive » Archive through March 18, 2009 » Stereo gods please help pictures included « Previous Next »
By Mike H (seaswirlmike) on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 10:42 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
so hopefully someone on here can give me some much needed suggestions as to what im doing wrong with my system or some well needed pointers on some things i may have over looked. i have included a diagram of my stereo and the wireing set up installed (99% correct)in my boat as we speak. the only change is that the charge wire off the alt. goes directly to the common post on the back of the perko.

my first problem is i hear many of you speak about playing your stereo for hours on end with no problems except for dead batteries come the end of the day. with the 3 j/l 1000/1 amps i have, even with 8 fully charged yellow tops (all of which are good, i had them checked) and the capactiors, on a good bass note i can pull the voltage down low enough that the amps will shut themselfs off with their low voltage protection seeing under 11volts. soon after they will turn themselfs back on and continue to play. the only way i can seem do keep them from cutting out is by turning down the bass..... exactly what i dont want to do. as you can see ive ran 0gague wire to a distro. block and the absolute shortest 4awg i can into the amps with the same combo for the ground. the only thing i can think off is that 1 run of 0 gague power wire may not be big enough and it may need another run.
im truely at a loss for what to do next. i tried to build the best i could and im beginning to think that these j/l amps could be my biggest downfall with the ammount of volts they suck up. if someone could just tell me what to do next i would owe surely appreciate it!!

i also know that charging is an issue and after reading about the balmar systems that have been installed on a few boats lurking around wakeworld im in talks with balmar trying to set up a system for my boat.

anyways sorry for being longwinded i just wanted to be detailed so it would hopefully make it easyier for someone to help me out

mike Upload

 
By ManFox (h20jnky) on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 11:20 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
and cue grant...
 
By HeHateMe (hamkj) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 12:02 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I have to say... your NVS 1010's would sound wayyyyyyyy better powered by my ZAPCO DC 1000.4 I am selling! 500X2 @ 4 ohms.... stereo...
 
By Mike H (seaswirlmike) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 5:31 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I would totally agree and duane said the same thing. that kicker ZX650x4 was there powering the old tower set up so I had to see what it would sound like. it actually sounds really good, just gets a touch warm sometimes being a small amp pushed pretty hard to power those 1010's
 
By Ben Terry (jedidiah) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 6:55 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Mike,

I'm suprised honestly that you are running into this issue.

Are your amps going out after hours of play with the boat off? Do they ever cut out with the boat on? Do you charge your house bank every night after you done using the boat?

Obviously, at this point your are looking at a heavy duty charging system. Honestly, I hope there is another solution because while I'm not running 3 JL subs individually amped, I will be installing 4 cadence amps over the weekend into my boat for 4 WS Pro 80's, 6 WS-650's, and the new WS 12inch XXX sub, and a charging system is not in the cards for me.

Eagerly awaiting some resolution to your post.

Ben

 
By Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 7:03 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Depending on where you have your gains set, those JL amps may be drawing enough current to drop the voltage down that low. Who checked your batteries? Test them yrouself IMO.

The regulated power supply in those JL amps could be a problem. The will put out the same amount of power regardless of input voltage....whcih means when ever your voltage drops the current draw will sky rocket to keep up with the output (compoundig your problem) where as a traditional amp the output will drop off.

Where is your HU and eq getting power? What turns on yrou stereo? key or switch on dash.

When your amps are cutting out is your HU cutting out too?

 
By nu bu (05mobiuslsv) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 7:07 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Mike wow quite the system you have there I'm sure it absolutely makes your eyes rattle. The 1000/1's are notorious for consuming some serious power, I've only got one but am running 3 12w6's off of it. What is your charging routine like when you get home or back to the dock? One thing I would try is to disconnect one of the 1000/1 amps and see if it still cuts out. If not you might want to get a distribution block that will allow for 2 inputs of 0/1 guage and run another.
 
By "G" (grant_west) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 8:04 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Mike: first off. There are alot of "Story-tellers" some call them B.S'rs here when it comes to play time. Don't believe the hype. I havent run into a single person yet that can play even 1/2 the time that they claim. But then again alot of people say they have been taken by Alien's and Elvis is still alive so don't let that stop you believing.

Your wire diagram looks good. I don't see a problem with it. I hate to say it but "check your ground" This very well could be your problem. The reason I say it is because this very same thing happed 2 me.

Optima's Hummmm Im hearing more and more story's about people not having good luck with Optima's. Is that because they are having problems? or could it be that everyone has one in their boat and they are very common sort of like Coors lite beer's.

3 JL 100/1's and 3 12/W7's are gonna pull some serious power. Dont be supprised if you blow threw your battery power in under 1 hr pushing some hard bass.

Yes shore charging is key Im 99% sure your doing that because anyone with that amount of batterys and the way your equipment is set up know's.

Yes a Balmar charging system is gonna help you but not fix your problem. See if redoing your ground helps and get back with us.

Does your bass drop out when your batterys are fully charged? Optimas are fully charged around 12.8

 
By "G" (grant_west) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 8:08 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Or last but not least get ahold of Enriched Audio, They have a guy "Lance Doggy" he sweeps the floors and knows about batterys. He says the blue top batterys that he sells last for 3 hrs each. Get 8 of thoes suckers and your troubles are over. When you are there get me a few as well
 
By clubmyke (clubmyke) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 8:52 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
couple of things -

-i wouldnt use a cap with regulated power supply amp...

-check your alternator output

-get a bigger alternator

 
By Ben Terry (jedidiah) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 9:17 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Grant- Would the OP be running into these problems if he were constantly running the boat?
 
By "G" (grant_west) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 10:24 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Ben: What is the OP?

Constantly running your boat dosent do anything if you don't have the Alternator horse power to put back in to your batterys, Yes it might keep your system running but your not charging back.

Example: Your Batterys are empty. You have a 70amp alternator. Your stereo is running and drawing 60-70 amp's, Any charge that you might be able to put back into the system is taken right up by the stereo draw. So you can see running your boat does little to nothing for most people that don't have a big charging system.

Slowly people are starting to get it. Yes you can install a huge system but unless you have the power to run it and re charge it then your play time is gonna be nothing.

Most people think they are doing well with 2 extra batterys. Look at the system above It has 8 Optimas most people would think that 8 Optimas or 455 Amp hrs is allot battery power and your never gonna run out of power. Depending on how you run your Bass you can smoke threw that in one CD

 
By "G" (grant_west) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 10:26 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
By the way I bet Mikes system with 3 13's Is pounding pretty hard.

Mike "The force is strong with you"

 
By Harold (wikd281) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 10:50 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Jl audio amps tend to be very sensative when dipped into low voltage. I started with 2-12w7s in my boat with the JL audio 1000/1's and I had the same problem. I was running 1 amp per sub. This was about 4-5 years ago and I listened Grant and sold the JL amps. I have JL amps in my truck and I like them, however, JL W7 subs can eat up power no problem. I was pushing 1000 watts to each 12 and then Grant told me it sounded funny, then he re-did the system that I had the local stereo shop install. It pounded much harder with the Orion XTR 2400 amp that he had. With you trying to push 3-13's I would think you need much more power. Now I am running 4-12w7's and I have 4-XTR 2400's. With them @ a 3 ohm load they push app. 1500-1600 watts per sub. I have 9 blue top optimas and I can play for hours (and yes, I learned how to rock it from Grant- so No- I am not just saying I can run my batts. for 3 days straight) haha!
Have you tuned your system? That could be a part of your amps shutting off.

 
By "G" (grant_west) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:15 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Harold is a bad example of how Optimas can work.
I have never seen anyone so in tune with how to conserve power. Harold runs his system in a way that he is not wasting power. This mean's constantly adjusting the sub's volume so that the sub's are working at near to max with out wasting power. Most people like me have the Eq set and I don't adjust it you can lose or waste lots of power pushing a song or track that has little to no Bass simply adjusting the sub's volume down till you don't notice a loss in sound and will save you some much needed power. Harold will constantly be going back and forth to turn up and then down his bass volume. This way of adjustiing volume can save lots of power and this is how Harold is able to play with more gear and less battery then most. Harold also has a great ear and know's how to tune a system like no other. Harold I gotta get you to adjust my system. I know you will be able to get way more out of it once you get to tuning.

 
By Sam (wake1823) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:18 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I had the switched power to my radio pullling of my #1 battery not my stereo battery, which caused my HU to drain my #1 battery over the course of abotu 4 hours, in turn on higher volumes my HU would cut out due to low voltage. since my amps were hooked up to the #2 battery bank they were fine.
 
By Mike H (seaswirlmike) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:19 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
adam: I had a buddy who works at ford take them in and test them. he's not biased either way and he said they're all good. do I need a machine to check them myself or is there a special way to do it because I'd be glad to re-test them. the HU and EQ get power from a switch on the dash and I've never had a problem with them cutting out. lastly none of the gains are set too high, I've actually backed them down trying to solve this problem

nubu: I usually throw two battery chargers on at night after I get off the water so they're getting about 8+ hrs on the charger a night after I go out. also I have disconnected 1 of the JL's and it does play for longer but that's kind of taking a step back once I've come this far I'd like to make the absolute best of what I have.

grant: its nice to get a pass on my wireing I hoped it was legit. I will check all my ground connections physically AGAIN hahaha but have you ever heard of checking the ground connection resistance with a volt meter before?? if so do you think its necessary? also yes it cuts out fresh off a long land charge with the boat running. what kind of amps do you run to push your 13w7's if you don't mind me asking. I'm trying as a very very last resort to take it shop. too much pride to give up now hahaha

 
By Harold (wikd281) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:23 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
"Harold is a bad example of how optimas can work" haha! nice! I guess I just hate to hear distortion! When we play our systems its at or near the highest possible level they can sustain to play at. If 100% is max volume we probably sustain 89% play volume most of the time. At that level bass signals can elevate between different recording volume of songs. I dont like going back and forth, but at the same time distortion is embarrassing!!!!!
 
By "G" (grant_west) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:26 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Mike: Im running 4 Arc Audio SE 2300's I 23oo to each 12 W7's Here is picture of my Bass Train LOL
Upload

 
By Mike H (seaswirlmike) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:28 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
harold: does orion still make the xtr line of amps? I've seen on their website the HCCA line which I assumed was the top of the line for them. its funny you mention that xtr 2400 I actually had one back when I was in school.

also I have my w7's wired to 1.5ohms I wonder if that's my problem do you think running them at 3 would be better?

(Message edited by seaswirlmike on May 29, 2008)

 
By Harold (wikd281) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:29 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Mike H (seaswirlmike)- Wiring looks ok. I havent wired up a W7 to those amps in a while, but, is there a possible way that you have it bridged to a 1.5 ohm load and not 3 ohm?
 
By Harold (wikd281) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:31 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
The amps they make now are said to be not the same oversized power supplies they have in their xtr2400 black colored amps. I bought 2 of mine from ebay and 2 of them from the local stereo shop. Let me call them right now and see if they have any left.
 
By Harold (wikd281) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:34 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I just called the stereo shop and they dont have any more left. Grant seems to like those ARC amps he's using but I havent gotten a chance to tune them in. In a few weeks we were going to hook the stereos together at the lake and hopefully we'll get a chance to compare the output of the amps. Our setups are close we both are pushing 4-w7's but he has a box thats under the dash that will be a lot more punchy bass. We have almost the same box under the passenger seat so it will be a good test to tell you which amp will produce more raw power.
 
By "G" (grant_west) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:35 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Mike: No I have never checked ground with a meter like you talked about. Like I said I had the same problem. My subs were dropping off on heavy bass hit's. I was pretty embarrased and suprised to find out the main ground to my systems power was loose. Duhhhhh?? The wing nut bolts that were making the connection for my battery's power and ground were the culprit's.

If you have wing nut's on your battery's terminals connecting the power and ground. Do yourself a favor and replace of them with nylock's locking nuts. The wing nuts might work fine for you right now but trust me they will come loose when you least expect it and cause you trouble.

 
By Mike H (seaswirlmike) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:40 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
yea I have been hearing good stuff about arc audio lately so ill be interested to heard your guys opinion. I will be changing that wing nut immediately when I get home.
I pretty much have to wire the 13w7's at 1.5 ohm load for the 1000/1 to make the correct power right?

 
By "G" (grant_west) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:43 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
The old school Orion XTR 2400's are a Ebay only Item. They are a Cult classic amp and SPL guys whord them. They are a "Sledge hammer" as far as amp's go.
I have seen Used orion XTR's go for like $600 on E-Bay Thats the only place your gonna find them.
Mike: I don't like to tell you your amp's are the problem because I dont think they are. BUT I havent seen/heard of 2 many people that are happy with the JL amp's pushing W-7's. It sucks. I love JL's Sub's but dont like and will not use there amp's Sorry.

 
By P. Van Every (boss210) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:44 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
If you have enough room for 8 batteries I would go with 8 six volts, Running a cap is going to make up for the lack of cold cranking amps that are needed. Wired in series they have almost double the amp per hour that you can get out of any 12v battery.
 
By Ben Terry (jedidiah) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:46 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Grant-

OP = Original Poster or Thread Starter.

In regards to my system and what I will be running:

4 Wet Sounds Pro 80's with a Cadence 2002 per pair.

6 WS-650 interior speakers bridged off of a Cadence 9004

1 12 inch XS-XXX run off of a Cadence 8000D.

I will be running everything at 4ohms save the 9004 for the interiors.

I'm planning to run 4 Blue Top D34M's for the House Bank and 1 Blue Top D34M for the starter battery.

Plan to use a BlueSeas ACR to islate and then a Perko to switch back and forth from House Bank to Starter battery if needs be.

I have Tsunami Amp kits and am running high grade wire everywhere.

We do not really do any "party cove-ing". We are constantly either surfing or wakeboarding, so am I really going to need to worry about over-heating my alternator with my system setup like this? Or even my system cutting out? I figure I will be pushing somewhere in the neigborhood of 2500-3000 watts at 4ohms give or take.

Also plan to charge up the batteries every evening.


Thoughts?

 
By "G" (grant_west) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:46 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Yes your 13W-7 is a duel 1.5 ohm sub. If you have both voice coils hooked up and run straight to a single amp you have a 3 Ohm load.
 
By Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:47 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Mike those JL amps will push the same power at 1.5 ohms as they will at 3 ohms. Re-wire thsoe subs...that could be your problem. Even with their RIPPS technology those amps still perform better closer to 4 ohms.
 
By Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:51 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
wait a minute if thsoe are dual 1.5 ohm speakers ( they shoudl be) yoru proabbly running at .75 ohms if yrou paralled them together. Taht is definately why yoru amps are going into protect. Run them in series to each amp at 3ohms. sorry for the mass spelling errors, lol.
 
By "G" (grant_west) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:52 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Ben: I would say your be fine. Never turn off your boat and don't play any hip hop. LOL No serious 1 wetsound's 12 isnt gonna pull much you should be fine.

If you havent bought your batterys yet I would say or say try out the SeaVolt AGM batterys from West Marine. I have been very happy with them Pound for Pound size for Size I think they are way better than the Optima. I have heard good things about the Kenittic's also but dont have first hand experiance with them.

 
By P. Van Every (boss210) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:53 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I have a friend that works for a local sacramento battery distrubutor and she can get optimas and any other sort of battery for well bellow retail.
She can also awnser any questions about the amps per hour on any battery she sells.
Contact her a talison@surewest.net

here is the rating for a 6 volt battery
US2200 122 min@ 75 Amp hour draw 232 AH
again put in series and you have more aph then a 12v.

 
By Ben Terry (jedidiah) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:59 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Grant- Thanks man. I already have 3 Blue Top D34M so I figured I would stay consistent. Is it a problem to mix up batteries when running them parallel?

P. Van Every-- Can she beat $120 for a Blue Top D34M?

 
By Ben (soundbox) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 12:23 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Mike - All of the suggestions that have been posted so far are great and should be looked into. An alternative to the balmar system is a Honda generator connected to a large Cascade (or similar product) power supply. Tie the generator into the boats fuel supply and isolate the bank from the boat and just run with the generator stashed in a locker. This doesn't seem like the best use of your locker but it will give you power all day long, engine running or not. I do have access to a 230amp marine alternator if needed.

The JL Slash Series amps and W7s are very hard on boats and anyone should be prepared to spend as much effort in supplying power the system as putting the system itself together. Next time look into an unregulated sub amp and maybe the SPG555s.

A couple posts up you mention that you have the 13W7 wired into 1.5ohms. On the 13W7s you can only wire them to .75 or 3ohms. The 13W7 is the only W7 that uses a dual voice coil. The 1000/1 will only work when in the 3ohm configuration with the 13.

When the amps shut off does the blue or amber light come on?

If you get everything going it should be a current consuming bass booming screaming system. Hope some of this helps.

 
By Ben (soundbox) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 12:24 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
looks like everyone beat me to the voice coil issue.
 
By N Adams (thesack) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 1:03 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Its probably a combination of 2 things. The inability of your charging system to keep the batteries charged and your impedence.

You will have to fix your charging system first. Best guess is that the batteries trying to charge is taking power away from the stereo.

Try this disconnect all but 1 stereo battery while out on the water. Make sure that it is charged prior to going out on the water. Make sure that it is charging while you are out on the water.

 
By Harold (wikd281) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 1:25 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Mike H (seaswirlmike)- couple more questions for you. What do you have your perko switch on when you are testing the amps for shutting off? A few words of wisdom that I learned from my system so its easy to remember is you Party 1st, then go home 2nd. This way its not too hard to think, the large batt. bank on 1, the house bank 2. (Unless you like to jump from party to party, this could get confusing) haha!
Also, if you dont have a digital voltage gauge in your system somewhere (like a digital battery terminal- or fused distribution block) then you can use a hand held battery gauge. Tell me before you start your boat, when the system is not on and the boat ignition off. How many volts are you seeing? Then, after you turn your system on and its not at loud volume but just idling, how much voltage are you seeing? Try to post back your results here when you get them.

 
By Sam (wake1823) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 1:50 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
N Adams, he's already said that this is from a fully charged battery. His charging system is not an issue with his sub amps cutting out. FYI, your stock alternator is not made to be a battery charger, don't treat it like one.

The problem is obvious, like Ben and Adam said, if your running those subs showing a .75 ohm load those amps will shut down in protect mode. Period. That's your problem. Before you go ripping apart, testing anything else double check your sub wiring to make sure they are showing those amps 3ohms per sub.

(Message edited by wake1823 on May 29, 2008)

(Message edited by wake1823 on May 29, 2008)

 
By N Adams (thesack) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 2:19 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Amps shutting off for low voltage and for an impedence issue are 2 totally different problems that happen to appear to be the same thing.

More then likely his amps will shut off due to low voltage long before they shut off due to the impedence issue. Because the amps will try to draw as much power from the batteries in order to meet the imdepence demand. When the power to the amps is no longer they the amp will go into protection mode. When power starts to come back (like when the battery starts to get a charge again or the volume is turned down so that the battery has time to charge) the amps will turn back on.

When its an impedence issue the amps will over heat and go into protection mode. When they over heat they will not usually turn back on until they have cooled off completly.

Wit what Mike said his system is doing, it would lead me to believe that his first problem is lack of power. If he wired his subs wrong that will be indicated after his power problem is fixed.

 
By Mike H (seaswirlmike) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 3:06 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/support_pages.php?page_id=161

sorry i cant post the picture right now but the first picture on the left is exactly how i have the subs wired each sub with their own 100/1. 1 DVC driver with Voice Coils in Series. according to jl Dual-1.5 Ohm Subwoofer: 3 Ohms so i thought that was correct for the 1000/1 or am i totally off.

i know there not getting hot thats the first thing i thought too but i can put my hand on the hit sinks even after playing for a long time and there barely warm

harold: i have the "party bank" on #2. according to the digital readout on the caps with everything off it reads around 13.5 or around there. as far as just on and not very loud ill have to get back to you on that one

 
By Hate N Pain (hatepain) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 3:12 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I had a simular problem and it turned out to be the grounds for me too. If it's coming in and out within a 10-15 second range I doubt it's an over heating issue especially seeing as you have the VC's wired properly. Much more adept people have chimed in ahead of me but from my experience it was the grounds.
 
By Tanner Russell (tanner) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 3:40 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Are me and Adam the only guys running the Trojan batteries still? I just don't have problems with these batteries and have yet to kill them. This is with 2 kicker ZX 750.1's and two Kicker ZX 650.4's ... threw in a kicker ZX 550.2 this weekend as well. No problems of killing the batteries after playing from 1pm to 10:00pm (I did have one 30 min break at one point... and was also down for 15 mins around 6 letting my amps cool down). I have a pair of the T-145's and I think adam runs the T-125's or the T-105's. Can't remember.

Now I will say, apparently I'm like Harold. I bounce back and forth between the gains all day long on the different songs.... especially the subs and tower speakers. As my ear is kind of sensitive, and it bugs me if they don't sound perfect. My new WS-420 definately made it easier than crawling in the hatch all weekend.

 
By N Adams (thesack) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 3:52 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Mike sounds like you DO NOT have an impedence issue here.

So it is a low voltage issue. More then likely your batteries are not keeping there charge when they are all hooked together. Like i said earlier try running just 1 stereo battery that is fully charged and see what happens.

And like HatePain said i would check your grounds as well. Sometimes having your amps wired to one distrbution block then a single 1/0 wire out will cause problems making a good ground. Might try wiring each seperatly to a battery terminal.

(Message edited by thesack on May 29, 2008)

 
By Tanner Russell (tanner) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 3:56 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Also... when is the last time you equalized your batteries Mike?
 
By Harold (wikd281) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 4:14 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Mike H (sea swirl mike)- okay. If youre at 13.5 with everything off that sounds about right. Now, once you turn the stereo on what does it go to? (I know you were going to check once you got home, but please report it here so that evreryone can see what the results are). I agree with the others that it might be a ground issue. When I was running the 1000/1's they would overheat and then they would get finicky about shutting off/on into overload protection. As soon as I turned the bass back up they would immediately shut off/then back on again. VERY FRUSTRATING! I would think that JL audio would have a more powerfull amp for the 13w7 than the 12w7 but thats not the case. If this is not a ground issue, I would probably point toward the amps being "too sensitive". I hope this is not the problem because I know amps are expensive, so I am hoping its a simple solution for you.
 
By Harold (wikd281) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 4:48 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
In my system I am running 9 blue top optimas and when they are fully charged and I turn the system up w/o the motor running and the batts will start at about 12.6 on a full stab. From there I can watch the voltage drop and I can play the system untill I get to around 10.9-10.8. You can definately tell the diff. in the amount of bass when you start off because after about 4 hours of continous max volume I have to start turning up the bass to compensate for the lack of battery power. It will still play loud/clear but it definately takes the edge off.
 
By Mike H (seaswirlmike) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 6:00 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
harold: you still want me to have the boat off when i flick the stereo on to get the reading or do you want the boat running? i wont be able to get those numbers for you untill tommorow evening (you know how life comes at ya sometimes)

N adams: what am i supposed to do with just the one battery? stereo on/off, check to see if it charges?

hey i also wanted to say i really appreciate everyones help and imput thats why i like this website so much. everyone gives respect and knowledge from anyway they can.

 
By Tanner Russell (tanner) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 6:21 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
" everyone gives respect "

HAHAHA... you sure you got the right website w/ that comment?

 
By Mike H (seaswirlmike) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 6:30 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
haha yea well I guess there's always exceptions to the rule but in this case its been great
 
By Hate N Pain (hatepain) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 7:41 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Yeah, it's pretty amazing what people will do and say behind a keyboard. But I'm with ya most people on here have the right intentions and desire to help people. I too have gleaned a lot from those more knowledgeable than I here on WW.
 
By Harold (wikd281) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 7:49 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Mike H (sea swirl mike)- Yeah, if you can? I just turned on system and turned the perko so that I was pulling from all 9 batts. Played some house music with some deeeep bass lines and after about 15 minutes its right around 12.4-12.5. If you could tell us with the engine off and when you turn on the stereo and also whith the boat running and the stereo off. With the boat running and stereo off if you have fresh batts. you should see around 14.2-14.7. Then, while leaving the boat running turn on the stereo with the volume all the way down. It will probably drop but not too much. I am curious to see what your charging at but I dont think you should spend too much time on this because (my opinion) is that its either going to be a bad ground or those JL amps. As I said before, im crossing my fingers for you that its not the amps.
 
By N Adams (thesack) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 8:46 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
By cutting down to the one battery (which should be able to power your the size of your stereo for a little while on its own) you can check to see if the low voltage is being caused by having to many batteries linked together. Since you have so many batteries linked together that from my point of view yoru charging system can not keep up with it. Your stereo batteries never have the ability to power the way you want it too, because they are constantly fighting to stay charged. With only have your boat battery and 1 stereo battery being charged at the same time your voltage should be able to stay up and keep from turning off.

All you need to do is simply disconnect the power wire going from your fist stereo battery to the second. Then just make sure that main stereo battery is fully charge before you do this and that it is connected to your perko switch.

What this will do is let you know for sure if its a charging system problem or not.

 
By CAR (super_air) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 9:38 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Harold- Word on the XTR's running the Dub -7's, I am pretty happy with the way they perform. Did you know that between your boat, Teddy's,Grant's and my boat we are running 15, 12-W7's and right at 14,000 watts of just bass alone and all of them except for Grant's 4 are powered with the XTR's?

Ran the new charging system this weekend and saw constant 14.6 while running and never below 12.6 while sitting pounding the system to some Dj Sex Machine house music.

 
By Harold (wikd281) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 10:53 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Ceasar- wow, we're all running the XTR's huh? Good stuff man! I like how Grant paved the way for the new stuff and we didnt have to try it out ourselves(ARC amps). haha! Thanks Grant!

Thats awesome that your charging system was working well! DJ sex machine! Those are my favorite mixes!

 
By jason callen (westsidarider) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:10 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
just take your boat to liquid trends. they have a shop in santa clara and a shop in modesto, each about the same distance. they can hook you up so your system is thumpin and the girls are pumpin
 
By HeHateMe (hamkj) on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:58 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Must get rid of the JL amp... go with my Zapco DC1000.4!!!


 
By nu bu (05mobiuslsv) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 7:23 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
^^^^So he can run 250 watts to each sub, please stop with your stupid plugs for your used crap you keep trying to sell selling. You're like a swapmeet. Put it in the classified section and call it a day.
 
By "G" (grant_west) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 9:12 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
That Zapco wont push that W7 any better than his 1000/1's I have found that Zapco's run better at either 4 Ohm's or 2 Ohm's Just not at the funky 3 Ohm load of a W7. Plus a 13 W-7 Needs about 1500 watts to start Bouncing.

My Arc amp's Im sure have some Zapco DNA in them. After running my ARC amps for like 4 months I had found that they were going into protect mode after a few hrs. I sent them back to Arc and they re worked them to run in 3 Ohm's. I guess the 3 ohm load makes the amps think they are running hot.
The NEW Arc SE amps have the 3 ohm circut built into them so they work perfict in a 3 ohm load

These Picks are from a system Clay did with Arc SE 2300 Amp's Mike took these picks with his High speed cammera,
Upload
Upload
Upload

 
By Mike H (seaswirlmike) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 9:25 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
do you think those SE2300's are powerful enough to push a 13 or would something bigger be better? you guys use them to power your 12's correct? but I know you enjoy pushing every last penny out of those bad boys
 
By "G" (grant_west) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 9:36 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Yea A 2300 would be a great amp for the W7. The are not cheep. I think they are around. $1399 each
 
By Harold (wikd281) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 9:40 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Hmmm. Not sure there is something that will give you more power @3ohms. I would like to find out what else there is! I definately wouldnt want to run your subs in .75 ohm because its in a boat and most of the time its nice and hot when your out on the boat. As you drop the ohm load most amps will give you more power. Most of these amps are for show cars or competetions where they do full power blasts for about 3-5 minutes. In a boat you want to be able to play all day without you dipping into overload protection or have an overheating issue.
 
By Harold (wikd281) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 9:46 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
If your going to be changing your amps and you have some extra funds, why not add to your battery bank if you have room?
 
By HeHateMe (hamkj) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 10:21 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
You don't want a fine amp like a Zapco running a SUB... it was a suggestion for the fine display of tower speakers... quality and quality!!!!!
 
By nu bu (05mobiuslsv) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 11:33 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
He's got the kickers running the tower setup, you wanted him to ditch the JL's that are running the subs.
 
By CAR (super_air) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 4:01 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Harold -I actually added up wrong it is more like 22,000 watts of bass alone between the four of us, not 14,000
 
By all eyez on me (ponte_06_x2) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 4:07 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
this is really a easy thing to figure out. take your boat to kustom kar audio in santa rosa problem solved
 
By Ryan (aces6692) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 4:31 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
i love the w7's they hit so insanely hard, i love them
 
By Racer #5 Team Capt'n (bond) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 7:37 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
...Kris does not know this yet but he will be installing sum CRAZY stuff in my fathers 33 ford here shortly
 
By all eyez on me (ponte_06_x2) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 7:41 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
33 ford. NICE. best of both worlds. 33 ford and scott babson.
 
By Racer #5 Team Capt'n (bond) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 7:48 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
..I will post some pic's tomorrow we are setting the body in the morning, then off to Brizzo for the exhuast install. Scott will be getting a call in about 2-weeks for the install. Car has a HUGE history. Vern Tardell built this car with my father 30+ years ago. His son is now rebuilding the car from the ground up for my mothers B-Day the end of June.
 
By all eyez on me (ponte_06_x2) on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 9:29 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
is that roy brizzo from brizzo street rods? the coolest thing that i saw was we passed him and three other roadsters on the freeway. that guy can build a great roadster. i bet your pops ride will be sick
 
By Johnny (wakecat) on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 11:06 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I had the same problem with 1 1000/1 and a 12W7. I also have a JL 450/4 and 300/4. I was running a stinger power distribution block with a digital voltage display. I changed to a standard distribution block and so far so good. I din't have much time to verify but I'll be checking it out again today.
 
By Mike H (seaswirlmike) on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 6:36 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
so I found some interesting things in my exploration for loose ground/positive connections, and created some new questions for everyone.

1. I had a simi-loose positive connection on the O gague leading to the fuse for my highs. recrimped that and am good to go there.

2. no loose ground connections anywhere.

3. full batteries, boat off, volt meter reads 13.4. after playing for a few minutes its down to 12.8 or so. with the boat on the volts would not increase at all.

4. so I checked the alt. only 11.89v output even at 2500rmp. I left my amp meter at work so I couldn't tell you if it was even making any amps. I'm just going to assume it wasn't.

so I'm getting the alt rebuilt so I can have something in there for now.

my new questions are: basically the tech guy at balmar really blew me off and turned me off to them. according to people like grant and ceasar they make a really good product that I still think I wouldn't mind having but I don't know what to do now. I was told about an alternater company called irragie(s/p?) is supposed to make a high end alternater. anyone heard or know anything about them? or any other good alt. makers? I'm really not trying to put a generator in the boat hahha. thanks guys

 
By Mike H (seaswirlmike) on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 7:01 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
also I was told that my 2awg battery to engine grounds weren't enough, I should have at least two 0 gague wires, one from each side of my battery banks for grounds to the engine block.
 
By Harold (wikd281) on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 10:22 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Hmmmm. With no loose ground connections I would resort back to the other findings of it being the JL audio amps being too sensitive to shutting off with low voltage. Your batts. at 13.4 with the boat off are fully charged batts. Mine are at the same voltage. When I start my boat and I have 9 fully charged optimas I see anywhere between 14.4 to 14.7. Once I turn on the system it will usually drop to around 14.1-14.2 volts. I bought an alternator from a place in Campbell, Ca. called Lectronics. Its right off of highway 17 and I have had good luck with them. I will be honest in telling you that I have smoked 2 alternators because I thought my alternator was good for charging my batts.- when its really not good (unless you have the balmar system) to charge 8-9 dead batts. because the alternator will kill itself trying to charge that much. Alternators are good for sustaining the batts. but are not really strong enough to charge lare battery banks. The balmar system is great because you have the ability to run a 220 amp alt. and it has a smart charge regulator. This will monitor the temp. of the alternator so that it doesnt kill itself trying to charge a dead batt. bank. It will only put out the max of what it can sustain. What I do to get around this problem is: when we are done partying for a few hours and the large battery bank is low, I then switch the perko switch to charge only the house bank. With 2 optimas on the house bank and a 160 amp alternator, its plenty of power to run the boat, neon, tower lights, nav. lights, and docking lights. The bad thing about having a perko switch is that you have to remember to manually switch it over. A lot of people dont remember after they're done partying for a few hours. For the drive home I switch the perko back to the All position so that the batts. can equal out the power from the fresh batts. and the drained. When I get home I have an onboard charger that I supply an extenion cord to and let it recharge overnight. It usually takes a 30 amp charger about 2.0 days to fully re-charge the batts.
There is another thing that you may find out trying to charge the optimas. Grant and I faced this problem when we were both running the factory alternators and then the alt. from Lectronics (before Grant went with the balmar).
Most alternators that do not have external regulators dont charge the optimas well. I have found that internally regulated alternators will only put out between 11.5 to 12.8 volts because they dont know that the battery is low. I dont know exactly what it is, but I have found the solution is the take the alternator apart and put in an external regulator. What engine do you have? What boat?

 
By Mike H (seaswirlmike) on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 11:21 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I have a 2005 sanger 215 black scorp. motor and serpentin belt.
I was afraid/almost figured these jl amps were a major part of my delima.
are you just super vigilant you don't try to charge your big dead battery bank with your alt. and that's what keeps it from goin out?? please explain more abot the lectronics I love knowledge!! I'm looking at all my options here

(Message edited by seaswirlmike on May 31, 2008)

 
By Harold (wikd281) on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 12:12 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I only use the alternator when I know the batts are not worn down. If the batts are somewhere in the low 12's or high 11's I then will turn my perko switch to only charge my house bank. With my stereo still wired to the acc. bank I can still play the stereo untill those batts. are dead and my alternator is still running strong.
I probably will step up to the balmar setup eventually but for now its not in the plans.
From your screen name I thougth this system was in a sea swirl. haha! Nice!
Yeah, I think at this point if the ohm loads are ok (wiring of the subs) then I would point toward your amps. Now, I think you might be able to send them back to JL and have them tested out for the low sensitivity? I would think that if they just diconnect the sensor that you would be able to run them without shutting off. Probably would void the warranty tho, might not be the best idea.
Lectronics was the only place nearby that I found for high output alternators. Whats nice is they dont send the alternator out, they can re- wind your alternator to put out more power and they will even let you into the shop so you can watch how they do it. Or they can show you other larger case alternators to see what will fit in the area that you have to work with. A dual alternator setup would be the best bet, or doing an on board geneator- that would be ideal. I would say probably the most ridiculous setup would be 2-3 balmar alternators- then you can charge all day long a huge batt. bank and not have to worry about it.
What usually blows up the alternators is the heat. Charging at 140-160 amps can get the alt. really hot. If you dont have the balmar regulator a normal alternator is stupid. It will keep charging untill it kills itself from either over heating it or simply putting out more than it can.
We usually tie our stereos together via RCA cables so I dont have to play at full volume all the time. With multiple stereos together we can rock it longer and not use as much power. But, it gets crazy when you start mixing up the beats and the really good songs come on because thats when all the stereos volumes go all the way up. After a full day of partying with muliple 7000-8000 watts stereos I find myself deaf and not wanting to turn up the stereo as loud the next few days

 
By Scott Legge (w00taz) on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 10:39 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Sidebar: what kind of battery charger do you recommend for home? I am going through this fiasco right now. I killed a craftsman 1/2/6/10/15/30 amp charger I borrowed and am in the market for a new one. The blown one was about the size of a shoebox which tends to lead me to believe there's no way to pack that much power in a 100% duty cycle box that small.
 
By Brady Cassel (big_b_21v) on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 10:52 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
This is what I just added to my setup.

UploadUpload

http://www.amazon.com/Guest-2620A-Battery-Charger-24-Volt/dp/B000NHZV22/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1212385723&sr=8-2

 
By Mike H (seaswirlmike) on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 7:36 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
haha the seaswirl is where this whole wakeboarding/stereo madness all got started so the name just stuck.
I guess first things first and I'm going to have to get this whole charging issue sorted out then giving JL a call to see if they can finess them amps wouldn't be a bad idea. I'd hope they would be able to do something tricky since that is about the only complaint I have with them.
I've been looking at the 94-210 from balmar, its almost exactly the size of the aftermarket one wire delco alt. I have in there now but list price of around 1500, still need a regulator, and they were rude to me that's last resort. I think I would rather have a custom bracket for dual alts. made somewhere. if someone tried to put 2-3 of those bad boys on a wakeboat they better have some serious HP upgrades or their boat will never get out of its own way hahaha. untill I get it all figured out I will just have to do basically what you do and try and keep the alternater from killing itself.
hopefully one day we can add our boat in your daisy chain of stereo madness!!
thanks again all
mike

 
By Mike H (seaswirlmike) on Monday, June 09, 2008 - 11:52 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
update: had the alt. rebuilt to a 200amp 1-wire, found another simi-loose power connection and fixed it. end result is a dramatic difference. I was able to play music all day as loud as I felt necessary ;) while we rode, and for a couple of hrs at the beach. we usually turn the jams down as we cruise through slow water back to the house out of respect to the neighbors and by the time we got to the house the digital read out said we had 13.10 volts with the boat off.
 

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