|I was checking out the article on WW home page about the new xstar that andrew tested. well something rather strange caught my eye. that was the balast system that mc is using in that boat. i know it said purevert system which is what Calabria is using and patented. Did MC buy the rights or what is the story on that? I have been calling around trying to find out, but WW is about the best source for a lot of things. heard anything about this?????|
|That's not all MC is stealing from Calabria. Have you checked out an X-9 up close. Copy cats.|
I think MC is licensing the technology from Calabria. Patenting PureVert was probably one of the smarter things Calabria has done.
You are the guy with the connections though, find out from the source and let us know!
|Whats the deal on X-9's???? I haven't noticed anything on that. |
Well I have a good idea what is going on with the balast system, but somehow, WW seems to be the place to find the down and dirty about a lot of stuff. So I thought I would snoop around on here to see what all i can find out...hehe!
|Ok, got the low down today. MC is paying a royalty to Calabria for every XStar that they build with the purevert system in it. mc is only allowed to put the system in the xstar and no other boat. It is a replica of the Calabria PureVert wakesystem as far as the liner system is concerned. But of course MC like all other manufactuers except Calabria, have to pump in the water. So still takes that lengthy time period to fill the tanks. Only problem is that MC cannot figure out how to make the tanks work. Which is one of the SERIOUS problems they are having with this new boat. Not trying to burst bubbles here, just stating the facts. |
That is very interesting indeed. It doesn't seem like it's worth it to have the PureVert if you don't have the gravity feed. Nothing like filling up in 45 seconds and draining in 30.
Thanks for the info.
|The funny thing is that most of the serious off shore rigid hull inflatables use a 6 inch hole in the back to take on water everytime the boats stops. This stabilizes the boat so it does not roll on the waves. As soon as you take off the boat hull drains. The only difference is a valve similar to a sewer drain on a motorhome. Now why can't the other boat manufactures find a loop hole? Seems so simple to quickly fill the floors of the boat using water pressure that is already existant. |
|I would have to agree with the both of you. Seems so simple but yet Calabria is the only one with it. And a sewer drain is EXACTLY what it looks like! |
|Not only does it LOOK like an RV dump valve, it actually IS an RV dump valve...at least the manual ones on the smaller D-drive was when it first came out. |
|they actually have switched to the automatic on all there models now. looks pretty sweet the way they molded the interior of the rear locker to fit it too. |
|By NAW (ripr) on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 9:55 am:
|Kind of off subject, but does anyone have a wake pic of a Calabria with just the pure vert filled? |
Carry on, good info here.
|A pic of the D-Drive or the V-Drive?? |
|By NAW (ripr) on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 11:11 am:
|either or, preferably both. |
|I was under the impression that Mike Murphy had the patent on the Pure Vert ballast system and Calabria pays him? |
Of course I don't know this for fact..... Side of my friends Calabria says "PureVert by Mike Murphy." or something to that extent. Just what I have heard.
The patent is actually co-owned (for lack of a better term) by Bob Jessen (current head of Calabria) and Mike Murphy. You can see all the gory details here, including pictures:
Go to http://www.uspto.gov and search for patent number 6,234,099
I don't know the exact details, but I imagine if Bob Jessen is listed on the patent, then he can probably use the technology without having to pay anything to Mike Murphy...just a guess though.
|Mike Murphy & Bob Jessen own the patent rights to the Pure Vert Wake System. I'm not sure how they are splitting the royalties though, and I'm sure it's non of our business. But what puzzles me is why MC would want to use pumps instead of gravity? |
Naw - Heres a pic of my V-Drive w/out ballast, when the ballast is on the swim step is about 2" underwater with 3 people.
|By NAW (ripr) on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 3:00 pm:
|Sweet boat for sure, dude! I'm goin' to check them out at the boat show in a few weeks to get a closer look...|
|Here are a couple pics behind my D-drive. That is stock ballast plus 800#. |
|One reason MC is using pumps to fill the ballast is, if you have a weighting problem on the boat (heavy one side) you can let water out to counter balance. On the Calabria it's either full or empty, the MC has 3 separate tanks, each filled and emptied by the newer Jabsco pumps.|
|Gramps on mine since it still has the manual valves you can do that. Just fill one more than the other. In fact since my boat is only 87" wide we do that a lot to keep the boat flat. I emailed Calabria and told them to run a right and left switch to the valves so you can do the same. As it is now one switch does it all. |
(Message edited by phaeton on December 12, 2002)
|Phaeton, I stand corrected! |
I do think separate valves is the way to go on that, it makes balancing the boat a lot easier than moving bodies here and there.
What did MC steal as far as the X-9?
|jump seats and the rear seat making into a sun deck. Those theives|
That's a good idea....maybe you just gave me an idea for a winter project. I am sure that the wires are just spliced together at some point so I think if I get another switch and just seperate the wires I could control each side individually.
I'll let you know how it comes out if I ever end up doing it!
|Ryan with inland surfing taking off, trust me someday you will want to do it.|
My buddy Bill (the guy who did the Inland Surfer review video on this site) got an Inland Surfer and we were using it last weekend. Very fun, except I think I'm too heavy for the board...I just couldn't find the sweet spot to let go of the rope.
On his boat, we just roll all the sacks over to one side and make everyone sit on that side. It probably would be easier to just fill one side of the ballast!
|That is actually one of the reasons that they don't put seperate switches for each tank in the Calabria's. We have talked about it just don't trust the unexperienced public yet. If someone was to try to fill one tank, and not the other, then your party shifts to one side for some reason,, that could be extremely dangerous. I know most folks on WW have enough sense not to do that, but there is always that one person out there that loves to ruin it for someone else. |
|BY ALL THAT IS HOLY, MasterCraft has committed Grand Theft Common Sense!!! Steal, Steal, Steal! That's all they ever do. Stole the back seat to sun pad from and jump seat from Calabria, Wakeboard Tower from Bubba Gump Tuna Company, and the '03 X-Star hull from Batman. But let's not let that facts get in the way of a discussion about the 12th best selling inboard boat. The "PureVert" patent is actually owned by Robert Jessen and Michael Murphy and it is not even assigned to Calabria. Their website even says so; "Calabria's PureVert™ Wake System has been awarded a patent by the U.S. Patent Office (U.S.Pat. No. 6,234,099)." Sure, it's patented but they never say to whom it's patented. By the way, if the pervert system is good, what's wrong with copying it and putting in in another boat anyway? Guess that wouldn't be a knock on the new X-Star, would it? And to claim that a jump seat is a unique item is ludicrous anyway. If that idea was stolen, it was stolen from the inventor of the chair (which was, incidentally, Sammy Duvall). And while we're talking about innovation, when was the last time Calabria designed and manufactured a new hull? They boast that since their beginning in 1987 "many things have stayed the same. Still around, and as popular as ever, are the Shortline Comp™, the Pro Comp™, the Laguna™ and the Barefooter™." Uh huh. When did they ever make their own hulls? Looks alot like a Centurion to me. You got a nice boat dude, you shouldn't be acting so jealous. |
Thanks for tolerating yet another rant.
|jc- do you still have that yellow brendella on your lot? now that was real nice clark, real nice.|
|Sorry dude, that thing sold like a cucumber in a women's prison. Now my buddy's selling a 2001 X-9 if you want to risk "receiving stolen property". |
|bring it to TBones tonight and we'll test 'er out.|
|Jealous' I have no reason to be jealous. I paid less for a boat that MC is coping ideas from. I'm thrilled and I have the only Red and White checkerd Alpina Phat-Boy.|
|JC, what do you REALLY know about Calabria? Before I retaliate against your ridiculous comments, I would love to know just how knowledgable you truly are. But I must admit, backing up a company that takes ideas from others isn't something that I would publicy do anyhow. Calabria was the pioneer of the HLS Liner System....end of dicusion. Mastercraft couldn't come up with a better idea, so they are paying us to use it. And the reason we patented it was b/c of things like this. When you are involved in such a competitive market, a nitch as big as the HLS Liner System is something you want to hang on to. Not put it out there for anyone to use it. If that was the case, the Patent office would be nonexistant. And to say it looks like a centurion just doesn't make sense. Infact, not even worth my waste of time. |
|Ken you know as well as I do that Mr. Murphy is a patent maniac.|
|All boat manufacturers steal from one another in some fashion. They all steal from Correct Craft.....Where do you think TOWERS came from??? |
I think the Pure Vert ballast is the best design on the market by far, it is the fastest to fill, the fastest to empty, and it allows for more floor space. If MC stole from the Calabria design for a jump seat and back sunpad then good for them because I love both of those on my boat.
I do agree with Phaeton, he does have the only red checkered Phat Boy around, and it would be nice to have a boat that doesn't look like all the others.
|Centurion is the most copied ski boat manufacturer out there! these are just a few of the things copied. Exactimer slalom timer, 1st barefoot outboard, 1st tournament v-drive, 1st spray relief pockets, 1st wide body boat, 1st inboard to do in mold gel, 1st inboard to offer tilt steering, hot water shower option, headlight option & the first wakeboard specific boat. |
|Centurion is also the birth place to so many boats. I think only a couple manufactures didn't start out or end up in the Centurion factory. |
I believe all these boats started there.
Ski Brendella then Mike brendel left and started MB Sport. Sued Ski Brendella for the name so they changed it to Calabria.
Not sure where these boats started but I think they are being built there now.
Supreme and Pro AM Skier.
|Then why doesn't Centurion put out better numbers at the end of the year? |
|Phaeton - Nice Boat. |
Hyco Lake Boats n' blah blah... What is it that I don't know about Calabria? Apparently (now Apparently, but I have yet to absolutely confirm), all ballast systems above the floor are patented by Correct Craft. All ballast below floor (HLS, PerVert) are patented by Jessen and Murphy. Here's what you DON'T know about MasterCraft: They are using a floor liner system but with pumps not valves, so it's not entirely the PureVert but uses enough of the same idea to warrant a licensing fee. "But I must admit, backing up a company that takes ideas from others isn't something that I would publicy do anyhow." Well, I would and I would publicly spell the word "nonexistent" correctly as well.
|JC- is there any Calabria's around here or a dealer that I could go and see one? |
|I'm amazed that despite their popularity, I'm not sure there is one nearby. How about Tige, Malibu, MasterCraft, Nautiques, Moomba, Supra, any of those work for ya?|
|Phaggon tells us those are all Centurion descent (except for MC and CC). So you better point me in the direction you think is best. |
|Again, two words. Air Palmetto.|
|i can't get anyone there to return my calls. i sent in my deposit over a month ago and have heard nothing.|
|Don't worry Travis, they don't copy any other company. Since most companies return your calls, they can't. They are a Class A company, though, and very innovative - probably the only company to never copy an idea. Heck, the Air Palmetto not even called a boat. It's call an All Purpose Poly Recreationally Oriented Vehicular Engineered Device, or "APPROVED" for short. The "vehicle" is not even built out of fiberglass, that would be copying most boats. They have invented their own material called QuadraGlass, made from a secret compound of salad dressing, molasses, and cement. The APPROVED is very unique in other ways. They have invested millions developing an innovative tethering system. The "tether" (or rope) is "attached" to the APPROVED by an electromagnetic force field, no need for a tower since it's not even physically attached to the boat. (This will save thousands of dollars in licensing fees). Here's the kicker, they have developed a brand new ballast system to avoid even more licensing fees. The millions invested in developing the BOB system should save thousands in ballast license fees. The Ballast Outside Boat or "BOB" for short (Patent Pending) was chosen after exhaustively experiment with many different designs. I have included a picture below: |
Don't worry about your deposit Travis, I'm sure you will be enjoying driving and riding behind your APPROVED in no time. I'd give you a link to their website but they don't have one. That would be copying.
|i think i saw these on the early model calabrias. but their buckets were of a more subtle red color that really glistens nicely off the water. i pray we are not in another copyright infringement.|
|Well, your wrong, I did know about the pumps. And the only reason they are using pumps is b/c Calabria won't give up the rights to use the idea of valves. And can't say I would either. Thus they once again turn to old fashion pumps. But if they ever get that idea with Calabria's liner to work, then they might have a balast system. Until then, not sure what they are using. |
Regardless of MC paying loyalties for a system they did not innovate, why all the freakin' sarcasm?
I can't even wait till boat shows to see if MC has yet to put some of the xstars out there with there dealers to actually sell. Or if they keep using the excuse "no production slots left" instead of speaking the truth.
|jc-are "loyalties" what spills over after the BOB system is full?|
|Bill, it's funny that we don't see more Centurions. Aren't they now made in North Carolina? Should that mean that there would be a lot of them in the Carolina's? I know of one here in the Charleston area, it has the Checkered paint scheme like a Cal-Air. It came from Atlanta. |
|I don't know how true it is....but from what I hear the plant here is actually shipping some of there boats back west b/c of slowing sales. That is probably a lot speculation, but who knows. I only know of one centurion in our area too. It is from Durham but he is a customer of mine. But you are right...there is a factory out by Rocky Mount somewhere. |
|Your right, Calabria has the patten to the ballast system, but mastercraft has something worked out with the company to use the bags, but it is stealing your right|
|Hyco, i don't think that is true. I think They ship to the west coast to help with the demand out there this time of year. |
|Josh-wouldn't "stealing" be illegal. i don't think MC is doing that. that is a strong accusation.|
|They are stealing it in a legal way....just like baseball, stealing a base is peferctly legal! haha! |
But yes Josh, they are using the pureveert, but what bag system are you talking about?
|yea josh- what bag system are you talking about?|
|Sarcasm - a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual. Why all the sarcasm? Because this is a ridiculous freakin' discussion. We bags, pumps, valves, liners, stolen jump seats, and a BUNCH of speculation. Who cares? Ride, have fun. But, then again I can't resist. At these boat shows of which you speak, if MC has no X-Stars and "they keep using the excuse "no production slots left" instead of speaking the truth." What is the truth? Please, tell me. I can't wait to here the truth about MC from you. Expect more sarcasm. |
|"We got bags, pumps,..." Sorry 'bout the typo. |
|In my opinion, and it is just that. I believe that MC cannot get there boat to work, for whatever reason is beyond me. But I do know they are having problems getting the balast to work properly. How about weight sensitive...heard anything about that with the new xstars? All I am saying is, I believe MC cannot get the boat to perform in all matters together, therefore they are using the excuse that there production slots are sold out as a cover up. But hey, who am I to have an opinion.|
|Oh and if this such a freakin' ridiculous discussion, then why on earth are you so involved it it? Don't like what you are reading, then leave, I know I sure won't mind a bit!!! But if you do have valuable, legit, correct info or less of an attitude toward the situation, then by all means, feel free to chip in.|
|Oh Whah! MC stole this, MC stole that. Get a freakin clue! This is part of life, this is part of business. In the end, everyone profits from somebody's idea/invention/creation. And I can't wait until the x-stars are distributed. All the skeptics will eat their words! |
Hyco, you do know your ignorance will blow up in your face, right?
|Ignorance....please do explain|
|If this "theft" thing is a big deal, I guess no single boat should have all these features: an open bow; a tower; board racks; tower speakers; V-drive; a ballast system; speed control; and a detachable swim platform, to name a few. |
Since no one manufacturer is responsible for these innovations, does this make them all "thieves"? Or does this only apply to MC?
|Oh, I don't know maybe the fact that your quest for MC to quit making production slot excuses instead of "speaking the truth" has turned into "in my opinion", "I believe that", and "for whatever reason". Sure, everybody's got an opinion and they're entitled to it but it can't be represented as an absolute truth. An opinion, that's all you got and it's a far cry from the truth. When was the last time you were in an '03 X-Star when the ballast didn't work as it was tipping over from weight sensitivity? What efforts were made to fix these supposed problems? How was the wake? How long did you ride behind it? And how did you become so familiar with MC's production schedule?|
|Let's cool it so that Dave won't delete this post. I would like to reflect back on it in a month or so. |
I look forward to that day!
|You got it Mike.|
|I never mentioned the boat tipping over for any reason. What I am saying is the balast system does not work...its that simple. I know this b/c MC is wanting to know how Calabria makes the system flow so well. And calabria is smart enough not to reveal to them there secrets. The boat has yet to be put into production b/c of problems they are running into. The boat is very weight sensitive b/c of the hull design. Those are all known facts that MC openly admits. Like it or not, they are using an idea that Calabria has invented. And b/c of that they are paying loyalties. |
What do you know about the xstar? Why aren't they in production? WHy is it they were worried about the stringers leaking when used with the PureVert system? Obvisouly I do know a little bit about the making of the xstar. But certainly not everything. If you have an inside source or something along those lines that can counter what I am posting, then that is cool with me. But you have yet to give me any facts, just complaining that I am telling the truth about what they are using and that I am voicing a dealers opinion on what is going on with them. I thought that was part of what this board is for.
Jeff...first off its not theft, as you probably know. This post was simply created to show the general ww public that MC is using Calabria's liner system and paying royalties for it. It is does have a patent is the main difference in all those things that you listed.
|Hmmmmm......Hyco Lake Boats...Rule #1 in sales never argue or be hostile to potential customers....Number 1 turn off to potential customers is the bashing of a competing manufactures product. Unless you have known facts and can prove your statements then your potential customers that are current MC owners are doubtful to ever give your product a second look. In my opinion, you are not representing your boatline well by not just joining... but initiating this post. I assume you have customers and therefore they possibly could be reading your comments. You admit in an earlier post that you understand that you are in a niche market that is very competitive. Did you start the topic to start ****, or does Calabria just not inform their dealers that they have given rights to their product to a competing manufacture? Maybe you should protect the image of your business and read the post and not respond. Or at least be smart and post under another name. |
|And my point is that Calabria is using lots of ideas invented by others, just like MC (and everyone else). It's true that not all these inventions are patented, but so what? |
On the other hand... If it really is important to acknowledge patented technology, why didn't you remind us that Correct Craft patented wakeboard towers and that royalties are paid for each one we see on a Calabria?
|and once again, in the end, everyone profits from somebody's idea/invention/creation/etc. It's the nature of the business/life/the real world. |
|I don't argue I simply tell what I know. And what I know is what Calabria is telling me. I have been posting on this site for a very long time and ever so rarely do I encounter any problems. I am one of the VERY few dealers that stick there neck out to post on here. I guess I didn't realize I was bashing MC. I am telling you what I know, its that simple. Its the truth, nothing else I can say about that. What I feel is an opinion, I told you, this is my opinion. Otherwise, I am telling you what my manufactuer is telling me. But go ahead and educate me on MC....I would love to catch up on all the "facts" about what is truly going on with the xstar. |
Mike, I did not know Calabria was paying a royalty to CC for every tower we put on. But information like that is very interesting to me. Just like MC using the purevert system, so i thought I would share what i know.
|it is good to see that Tige isnt the center of controversy around here for once|
|I think it's funny how defensive the MC people get. Calabria is just a small innovative little company. Nothing like the three giants, and I mean nothing.|
|If the Pure Vert System wasn't patented, then it would probably be on every boat out there. But to force it it fill and empty with pumps is defeating the purpose on which it built (gravity fill/drain). Didn't Toyota basically have this system in there boats? 2 liners built into the hull that filled and emptied with electric pumps. Why was that not copyright infringement?|
|Hey what kind of wakes do you like more or whta is the better one??? the vertical or the rampy wake???|
|IMO, I think Cobalt is trying to sue MC for stealing the pickle fork design, thats why we haven't seen them in showrooms..??? |
Just thought it would be fun to get everyone fired up again.
|No way Matt. MC Stoled the designer away from Cobalt to design the bat boat.|