|Hi I am searching some ways to add more weight to the boat. My family just got a new X-2 and the addition of adding weight without fat sacs and pumps would be great. |
I was wondering if anyone has doubled there hard tanks in the rear compartments and would it be a somewhat simple install. I am thinking if i just added another hard tank in the rear compartment and used y adpaters on the hoses so the pump fills both tanks at once.
|Suppose that would work...you'd just take up alot of room. I do have the hard tanks out of an 01XStar for sale|
|Wouldn't you want to hook up the overflow from the bottom tank and run it into the top tank and run that top tank overflow out. That way your bottom tank fills first in order to support the weight of the top. |
Then hook up your fill line to just the bottom tank.
I've hooked that up with a hard tank and a sack on top before.
|yeah that is a great idea of using the overflow for the upper tank. |
then i wouldn't even have to add T adapters for the lines.
i would have the fill and empty lines connected to the bottom, then the bottoms overflow would go to the upper tank and then the upper will overflow out of the boat.
|here is the design slightly revised. with the overflow and the double fill i think the bottom one will fill before the upper to support the weight and it wont take so long to fill the tanks.|
|oh here is the picture|
|Will- I also just purchased a new X-2. I already purchased enough sacs to add an additional 1400#. And am contemplating whether to do what you have drawn as well. I do have a Tsunami pump to use but I like the idea of just having to flip a switch and basically forget about it.|
|Here is what Bill at make a wake drew me up. |
|im guessing from the setup that make a wake did that the new x-2 has 1 pump for eac tank that fills and empties them.|
|here is a revised system with 2 stock hard tanks and using the stock fill/empty pump|
|brent just wondering what size sacs you got for it. and also what are you doing for adding more weight to the front |
|1-750# going in the front |
1-300# going wherever no one is sitting.
2- 150# cubes going in beside the motor.
That is it. I think I may buy 1 more 750 or 300.
|right now i have a 600 for the front but i want to hide all the weight so i think i am going to for lead. I think i am going to go for this automatic system for the rear. I am just hoping that the factory rear tanks are square and not some odd molded shape to the bottom of the hull if not i will go for the 205v hard tanks. |
|Will, on you last drawing, you might want to check the specs on your ballast pump to make sure they will push that much head (PSI) to fill the top tank.|
|i will check but i am guessing these are the same pumps as the ones in the x-star and the x stars side tanks were about 350-400 each and the X-2's rear side tanks are 150-200 each. |
So that is a total of 400 max if i doubled them.
|I have an 05 X2 - and built a custom system where I have 2 Fly high sacs in addition to the hardtakns.. The Fly high sacs lay next to the hard tanks, one on each side of the engine. |
Heres my .02
You need to make sure that your connection between your hard tanks is very low, otherwise, the pump will not be able to suck all the water from both tanks, but it will empty one tank fine. But, doing this creates a lot of back pressure which slows the pumps and makes them work harder.
It is for this reason that i put a Y split on the fill line, followed by a ball valve on each line, then connected the ball valve to each tank. this way I can independently control which tank is filling at all times. It is more versatile. Additionally, I ran overflow from me extra bags into the existing overflow of the hard tanks, this way, when the hard tanks are full the water starts to shoot out the side of the boat, I get up out of the driver seat, walk to the back of the boat and flip the ball valves. 4-5 minutes later, the water starts to come out the overflows again, and then I know were full... Very easy to use, and the use of sacs also gives me the option of taking them out on a day to day basis in case I need storage or somthing like that.
|forgot to mention... your fill line, is your empty line, so it works perfect that I fill both the tank and the sac from the bottom, and then they empty no problem. The sac actually empties about 99%. |
|Right on Josh thanks for the info. What size fly high sacs you got in the back? All the sacs I have are fly high quick connects. |
|Head pressure is about 1/2lb. per foot of elevation, those pumps work fine in that configuration. Control ball valves are nice features to have I agree it increases versatility.|
|thanks for the info Joshua it is really helpful i just dont understand how your overflow works. because if your tanks overflows wouldn't they overflow into the sac if they are connected on to the same overflow line. |
(Message edited by projectely4 on February 28, 2006)
|i think after looking at other peoples custom ballast systems and ideas from board members i have finalized the idea i think. |
The additional weight in the rear is going to be sacs that will be removable. after the fill/empty pump there will be a 3 way diverter valve which will allow you to choose either the tank or the sac to fill/empty. the overflow on the sac will also tie into the stock overflow hose.
|Curious how you'll keep one from not filling through the overflow when the other is done. |
I like they way you had it previously. 1 fill connect the 2, 1 overflow. Just watch the gauges for the hard tank and shut 'em down when full. I fyou want more watch the bags until they are filled how you want or just wait for the over flow.
BTW - That's how I'm doing mine. Keep it simple.
|well the overflow on the hard tank is closer to the front so the sac would never get fully drained and i dont want all that weight be pushed by one pump. |
the only problem i see with the last drawing is the overflow from the tank filling the sac which i dont want.
|I tied in the my existing ballast system. I put in a fatseat and move my rear ballast bag to the front and fill the ski locker ballast bag. All together it's about 2500lbs+. |
sorry the pictures isn't the best but didn't have all day to make it "pretty"
|I'm looking at the same project. 2006 X-Star. 4 additional sacks. |
I was planning on connecting the overflow of the original tanks to the fill of the sack that sits on top of it. And then the overflow of the bag to the overflow hole out the boat. This was suggested as one of the solutions earlier.
Is the back-pressure a real problem ? Rear bags are 825lbs each.
The other clean solution is the one presented by make-a-wake. What is wrong with that one ?
All the other solutions require extra manipulation and extra hardware in the back of the boat (valves, etc), that I wanted to prevent.
|well the nice thing i like about nthe valve is that it allows you to choose either the tank or the sac to fill/empty. |
i just think the overflow of the tank to the sac wouldn't work well. it will probably be kinda slow on the fill and i think it would be hard for all the water to be emptied out of the sac.
If you want to remove the sack (or tank in your plans) then you would have to disconnect the two connectors to the sack and reconncet the overflow to the build-in tank...
I have not heard any comments on the make-a-wake solution. This is clean and easy. You can always put one single valve on the fill/drain of the new tank/sack if you want to make sure it does not fill. And maybe a check-valve on the overflow of the new tank/sack so that it does not fill from the overflow of the build-in.
|yeah the check valve is what i was thinking i just wasn't sure there would be enough pressure for the overflow to opne it when the sac is full |
|Try connecting the system together using your new tanks sitting on top of each other outside the boat, plumb the overflow into the drain of the top tank, run your pump and see if it can handle the fill pressure. You'll be surprised. Water weight does exert pressure on the bottom and also on the side walls of the containers to a lesser extent, but not in terms of head pressure which is determined by water column height. It's pressure is the same on all sides of the container for a given height. Your tanks are not going to be 10 ft tall so the pump will fill the top tank fine. The only thing that will significantly speed the process is another pump set up in parallel. I do have experience with the bottom tank filling slowly as the top filled up quickly (by a second pump) and it deformed the bottom tank.|
|im going to go with the 3 way diverter valve with check valves on the overflows. this setup will give me complete control over what tank is filling and eamptying and they will not overflow into each other. |
|I do not worry at all about the top tank filling if I do not want to. Just turn the switch off and only the bottome one will be full. |
I do want quick connects, so I can remove the sacks if I want to. If things get wet I usually take the sacks out so the floor can dry out.
|Nothing wrong with what you are doing. But why don't you want to use fat sacks? |
I would take out the existing hard tank and put a 750lb sac on each side of the motor plumbed into the existing plumbing.
|i am using fat sacs on top of the hard tanks. i dont want to remove the stock hard tank because it has the gauges that work for them and they are made kinda under the floor and give the rear compartments and nice finished look. without the hard tanks it is just fiberglass. |
also i want the sacs to be removable if i need to take them out.
|This post is awesome. I have a 2006 X2 and plan on doing the same thing. I already had my rear bags made. The standard V-Drive bags that Fly High makes are too long by the way - I had them made a bit shorter for a perfect fit. |
I plan on doing a Y on the fill / empty with a ball valve on the hose going to the bag only. Reason why is I don't want to forget and leave both valve's closed and the pump is sucking at nothing. Also I will put a backflow preventer at the Y overflow on the bag side, but I also have concerns on if the pressure is enough under normal operation to push the ball. Maybe I'll do a valve there too. The guy at Fly High suggested using the barbed connects on the sac so you can take it out if you need too. Also tightening the caps with a wrench and using some sort of plumbers caulk.
I also bought a bow sack for the front from Fly High. A friend has one so I borrowed it to make sure it would fit under the seats. It does, but full it may make the seats come up, so that's a concern. Also a concern is the distance and height from the pump. Anyone thought about a plumbed in front sac for the X2 yet? I thought about doing it the same way as the back. Since my boat isn't in yet (next week) I will have to wait to get it to test some stuff out.
Thanks again for the advice and I will post more info as I get my stuff set up.
By the way - anyone have a suggestion for the best place to get this stuff? West Marine or something?
|the valve i am using on the fill hose is a diverter valve which lets you chose the tank or the sac. it can never be be fully closed. |
|hey andrew just curious what were the dimensions you ordered your sacs to because i am thinking of ordering 35x16x20 |
|Yes andrew please post pics and suggestions as to what your set up is when you get a chance to tinker with it. My boat is at the dealer and wil be for another month or so until all the snow is gone!! Its been sittin there for 5 months now.... its killing me but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel finally. |
|I believe the normal V Drive sacks and the only change was length - 32 inches long I think? I haven't put them in the boat yet, so if you can wait, wait until I put them in next week and try them out first to make sure that size is correct. When I measured for size, the sack-able area was 32x24x17 (from what I wrote down).|
|I will be plumbing in the sacs this week and I'll let you know how it goes..... |
|dang that's a sweet looking boat you guys. i'm jealous. |
|hey andrew i ordered my sacs yesterday and did 32x16x21. |
hey also i love the color choice.
mine is very similar but it has a Khaki deck.
|Sweet boat Andrew! I have the exact same except opposite on the white and black. Black hull white tail. |
|Mine is actually Navy in the back but its hard to tell in that light. My dealer has one just like yours Brent - looks awesome.|
|William - I almost went with the khaki deck and front, but changed my mind. Please post some pictures - I am anxious to see what I missed out on.|
|yeah definately i haven't had time to take pics yet except the rear platform. |
yeah i almost with the khaki in the front but i decided not because i thought it might have been a little to much khaki.
|My X10 demo boat sold last week. I'm getting a new X2 for the rest of the year, I'll let you you know how well the set up I sent Brent works. I already have two 200 lbs tanks that will set on top of the tanks in the floor.|
|I may stop on the way to pick up some hardware.... I forgot to ask the dealer - anyone know the size of the hoses for the ballast system?|
|just take the bottom tank overflow line to the top of the top tank, the pump will not have any trouble, and you will go BIG!! P.S. nice ride|
|andrew it is 1 inch hose used for the stock balast system. i got all the valves and hose and am going to probably install it today.|
|Where did you get your hose and valves?|
|hi guys I 'm new to the board, but had a question about installing a ballast system. I have a 89 maristar 240, so needless to say there is no current ballast system. I have 2 sacs, and plan on pluming them into my boat. I got the plans from this site, it will be using a single reversing pump system. I have a jabsco ballast puppy pump on the way. The main question I have is will this drain my sacs automaticaly? The reason I ask this is because this set up only uses one line to drain and fill. Both of my bladders have connections on their tops, and nothing on the bottom. So I was wondering if the pump would pull the water up and out of the sacs when mounted right side up. Or will I have to lay the sacs upside down?? I hope I have explained whats goin on in me head. Any help or shared wisdom would be great. THanks alot |
|Isaac, couple things here. Typically on a single reverse pump system you don't have vents so in essence when your pump is draining the sacs, it will pull the water out even when your on the top of the sac. It's an airless system so what happens is your sacs look like those vacuum seal bags on the commercials if you try and take every last bit of water out. |
My suggestion is to not drain them completely though. Leave a little bit of water in there. This insures you don't run the pump dry and cause any damage. You can mount the sacs upside down if you want, but it isn't necessary.
|you don't have to mount them upside down but i would if you can it just makes it easier on the pumps and all. |
Isaac sre you going to have a overflow then you would need to have them upside down?
|oh yeah andrew i got the hose and valves from west marine. |
I am using this diverter valve, but it isn't a normal ball valve. It is made by Forespar and is called a Marelon Y diverter valve. You can connect the hoses directly to the valve.
Then i got bronze swing check valves for the overflow.
I just installed the valve and hose for the port side and i am just waiting for the custom sacs to come in to test it out.
|Quick question guys, I am running aerator pumps for my ballast sacks and was initally planning on running a vent tube and y into the drain line right before the thru hull(underneath the rub rail). Then I thought to myself about the concept of water pushing out through the aerator drain pump anyways. Does anyone not run a vent line with an aerator system? |
|OK I got the boat today and was working on the stereo and ballast. I found two things inline in the hose (not connecting any new hoses) and I didn't know what it was. 2006 X2. It is from the manifold to the port and starboard empty holes, basically the empty lines. But what is this white thing? I don't understand what it is for? Can anyone help before I slice the wrong hose? |
|Looks like it might be a check valve. |
|andrew that is one of the empty lines for the system. there are 2 of them and the white thing is a check valve which only allows the water to flow in one direction, which is out the boat. you want to leave that line alone. |
to fill the extra bag you are going to want to cut the hose between the ballast pump and the tank. you will need a diverter valve which will allow you to fill both the tank and the sac.
then for the overflow for the sac you will want to connect a T fitting to the overflow line of the tank to connect the overflow of the sac and you will want to put a check valve on the sac overflow line. the check valve will make sure the tank overflow water will not flow into the sac and you will have no idea when the tank is full.
i will post pictures of my install so far which will show where i installed the valves and the hoses
|William - I would appreciate some pics if you have them just to make sure I do it right. I think I understand where you are talking about though. I will head to west marine tonight - I assume they have all the hoses and valves I should need..... |
Here is the boat after I picked it up yesterday....
|hey andrew after having all the stuff in the boat the diverter valves i got didn't fit how i wanted them to so i returned them and got different diverter valves. |
the valves will come in tomorrow and i will have them in by tomorrow late afternoon most likely so i can test them this weekend.
here is a to the new diverter valve i got. it is bronze and not quite as bulky as the plastic one i had. it does require threaded hose adapters though. everything is 1 inch
this new diverter valve is going to allow me to hide evrything except the handle for the valve and the hose that connects to the sac.
the forespar diverter valve was to bulky and it didn't allow for any good mounting locations.
|here is a list of the items |
2 1" bronze check valves
4 1" pipe to hose adapters
2 1" plastic T fittings
2 1" 3 way diverter ball valves
6 1" pipe to hose adapters (2 w/ 90 degree angle)
then you will need 1" hose and hose clamps and the Fly High 1" hose adapter for the sacs
|I may wait to see how they work for you and put them in next week then. I still need to get the right fittings from fly high. Did you go with the barbed fittings so you could take the bags out or the regular hose fittinsg? |
Would you take some pics and post them of your mods? If you water test and they work well then I know I am putting them in the right place. Thanks again - you have been a ton of help.
What are you doing for front weight? I got a fly high integrated bow sack, but haven't even looked yet at plumbing it. I want to see how full it gets - i am afraid if left unchecked it would buldge the seats. But I guess the overflow valve would probably prevent that, huh?
|Cool. That makes a little more since to me now. Andrew did you pick up what you need to do the ballast? Me and Dustin were up until 5 o clock getting the remotes and amps in, but it looks good!|
|It's Ike again, |
I was wondering if I need a overflow on this set up the diagram did not show one. Thanks for the info guys
|Kyle - i heard. I can't wait to see em. Dustin and I are going to get the fittings tonight, but since I don't have the sac fittings, we may wait to put them in (automate them) until next week.|
|Andrew yes i did get 1" barbed fittings with my sacs but i am waiting for everything from fly high to arrive. |
i am most likely going to get the integrated bow sac. if you did hook it up with a overflow it would just fill to the capacity of the bow storage area if unchecked and then overflow. i doubt it would bulge the seats. and if that sac isn't enough weight im going to get lead to put under the bow filler cushion.
isaac you dont need an overflow but then you will have to watch the sacs to make sure they dont overfill and pop. i think the overflows are much safer just incase the switch gets turned on accidently.
(Message edited by projectely4 on March 16, 2006)
|William, If you put a check valve on one of the vent hoses, won't it also prevent it from sucking air and draining properly?|
|well the check valve is on the sac overflow line so when emptying the sac, it will react as if you were emptying any other normal fat sac with a pump.|
|here is the diverter valve |
|I went a slightly different route for easy bag removal and for having an easy option to not fill the sacks.... |
|andrew i was wondering do both the tank and sac fill at the same time. |
my is actually pretty easy to remove the sacs if needed. there is a check valve so the tank wont overflow into the sac vent line and you just turn the 3 way valve to fill the tank only so no water goes into the sac line.
your install looks very nice. also what are you doing for ballast in the front?
(Message edited by projectely4 on March 20, 2006)
|Andrew, nice work. I'm in the beginning stages of building a ballast system from scratch. I cheaped together the manifold in the picture. Going with a 5 bag system and this was the simplest way for me to control everything from one central location. |
|A new option for this year is the new Elevate line of complete automatic ballast systems. Elevate systems include multiple bags, up to eight Attwood pumps, pickup, manifold, large diameter 1 1/8 inch tubing, clamps, factory switches, professional wiring harness, fittings - everything needed to install a OEM factory level integrated ballast system with complete instructions for installation. |
Wakeside.com is now offering the Elevate systems.
|Mike, is the price tag gonna remain what you have listed? I think that's the only concern and ultimately the reason most of us are building our own. |
Wakeside Design has been working closely with Elevate for over two years to develop their custom automatic ballast systems. Many of Wakeside's customers have been asking for this type of solution.
We are working on a press release and an email to our customers to announce the Elevate line.
Our goal is simply to help our customers. For the DIY'ers (do it yourselfers) we plan to carry a full line of the components to help build your own system. This component category is still under development:
We see boat ballast systems as important as the wakeboard tower and tower accessories so we plan to really expand this category to make ballast systems easy for the person wanting a complete automatic system or DIY'er who wants easy access to the wiring harnesses, switches, manifolds, fittings, tubing, pumps, etc.
The pricing in the Elevate complete custom systems will remain where it is. Many people don't have the time or skills necessary to design and build their own ballast system. Some don't like the idea of doing R&D on their own boat not knowing how it will turn out. Drilling up to 9 fairly large holes in the hull of their boat is scary for some. Elevate solves this problem for those that can afford a complete solution. All of the R&D is completed and all of the components are OEM quality, have been tested, and documented with thorough installation instructions.
For those concerned with the cost, having access to the quality components is important. We want to help with that.
If anyone needs help their ballast system, give Wakeside a call and they will do what they can to help - whether a complete system or components or advice.
|William - in my setup the bag and tank fill at the same time, but you turn the bag off. They empty at the same time too. Takes longer to fill obviously, but it seems to work well. |
For the ballast I have a fly high bow sac under the seats and we are researching how to make that automatic as well. Will post more as we figure it out.
|yeah i ordered the integrated bow sac and looked into how to make it automatic as well. |
I am going to basically do the same thing i did with the rear sacs but it will just require more hose.
the only thing i am trying to figure out is wear i am going to put my diverter valve so it is easy to access
|If you use a manifold and two of the right pumps for each bag along with 1 1/8 inch tubing, then you don't need diverter valves at all. You can fill or empty 2,500 lbs of water in under 7 minutes with full control of each individual bag. |
Call Jason at Wakeside to find out more.
|well i took out the boat today and water tested the sacs in the rear and the hard tanks and they filled and emptied perfectly. |
it was rough out today and i didn't take pics so hopefully i can get some pics tomorrow of the wake
|I'm looking at adding more ballast to my 210 as well. This post has given me some great ideas. I did have a couple of questions as to this set-up, could you run two pumps off one switch with out overloading the switch(not too skilled in electrical) as in the picture below? And does anyone know if the standard supply/drain line would even be sufficient enough for two pumps on the Nautique, it's an 06. I would also have a check valve on the bag over-fill line as well. I haven't gone in yet and started really checking everything out as I work about an hour away from my boat and haven't had too much time to get into detail yet. |
Any and all suggestions are welcome. Thanks
In that diagram, You would add together the load of your pumps, and it's probably best to make sure that load doesn't exceed 80%-90% of the switch's rated value.
Pump A: 3 Amps
Pump B: 5 Amps
(8 Amp load total)
If it's a 10 Amp or more switch, you're fine. If your switch is too small, and you have to use that switch (a dash switch or something.) Consider using a relay. you can e-mail me if you want to go that route.
|Also, both ground and 12+ will not go through your switch.. Take a look at this diagram |
|^^^^ Disregard the above diagram, it's wrong.. Artie's diagram is correct.. I was thinking of oneway pumps instead of two-way (bi-directional) pumps that Artie has in his boat. |
This post is in response to your question about how to wire this with a relay. My first suggestion would be to check the rating of the dash switch. (Probably 20amps) Then check the rating on the pumps, if they are under 20 amps, then don't do anything because this circuit will be kind of complicated, with lots of connections -- said differently, lots of places for it to wiggle apart and stop working.
The drawing below assumes a few things. First, it assumes that terminals 1 and 2 are a switch that has 3 different states. the first state, is Positive to term 1 and negative to term 2. The second state, Neg on Term 1 and Positive on Term 2. Third state, nothing on either term (off state.) It also assumes that you'll use SPDT (single pole, double throw) relays - explained later. You can do this circuit with 1 SPDT and 1 DPDT - This maybe advantageous, as you'd have two less connectors and splices.
3 - SPDT Relays $.99: See link at bottom
2 - 12v Diodes (200milliamp or greater) : Radioshack
x - Slip connectors.
x - wire
diodes allow current to pass through in one direction. For ease of understanding, imagine this diagram allows power to pass from either terminal 1 or 2, upto the relay. When Terminal 2 is positive and terminal 1 is negative, power passes through the diode on term 2 up into the circuit, but not back to terminal 1. You've probably heard of Light Emitting Diodes. Same thing, just these don't emit light.
Terminal 2 is positive, and Terminal 1 is Negative:
Power flows upto relay A, energizing the coil and turning on the relay. Power is then connected to relay B and C. Power flows to your pumps (indicated by the M symbol)
Terminal 1 is Positive and Terminal 2 is Negative:
Same as the first explanation, just this time power flows to the coil of Relay B and C which energizes those relays. They switch their position and reverse polarity on the pumps. Causing reverse pumping.
The reason I suggest 3 SPDT relays instead of a SPDT and a DPDT is cost. These are $.99.
I'm quite sure this is the simplest way to accomplish this. If someone has an easier way to do it, be my guest!
(Message edited by yosquire on April 01, 2006)
|Hey I just bought an x2 and will be getting it in about 2 weeks. I want to start planning out how im gonna add extra ballast. Anyone know how much weight is in the front compared to the back on the stock system. Also, when adding balast to the x2 what's the best ration front to back. Anyone figure out yet how they are going to plumb in the front sack?|
|when adding more weight to the new x-2 you are going to want to keep a 40/60 or 50/50 ratio front to back on the boat. |
also the rear hard tanks fill in about half the time of the center. so i would guess the rear tanks each weigh about 150 and the center about 300.
i haven't plumbed in the bow integrated sac yet because i haven't got it yet but i am just going to hook it up so it fills at the same time as the center hard tank.
|what does anyone here think about the quick connect setup-up from fly high? |
|I thought the X2 has about a 900-1000lbs ballast system. I would expect the rears tanks to be 350s and the center to be a 300. |
|I am currenly installing the pro-x sacks in my boat right now Cliff, but I have heard great things from people. When I bought mine I didnt buy the fittings needed since it would have been another $100.00 for just the fittings! The way I am hoping to get around this(meaning I have yet to water test) is to use 3/4 in NPT fittings. |
The one thing I noticed is that the caps that screw into the bag have a heavy taper but the the female side(bag fitting itself) has little to no taper.(probably fly high's attempt at forcing the sale of their fittings?). To try and fix this I bought two rolls of plumbers tape to create an agressive taper on the actual male portion of the threaded 90 degree elbows I am using.
|craig the old x-2 had about 800-900 lbs but the new X-2 only has 600-650 lbs|
|Really? that's not very much at all. Must be one of the value-added reasons to buy the x-star. |
(Message edited by yosquire on April 02, 2006)
|thanks for the reply Matt |
I am going to route my new rival system...then decide on the high fly fittings
I have an XTi...so I need the rear bags to be moveable