|I'm looking to upgrade my tower speakers. I currently have four 6's (Sony X plod). |
I have heard great things about JL audio and MB quart. I prefer loudness over clarity on the tower. Any suggestions?
|6.5's won't cut it for loudness unless you have 6 or 8 of them. But has anyone put these in their 6.5 cans, they say 6 inch but they fit in 6.5" cans. |
I bet theses would be pretty loud for a 6.5"
|I have 4 mb quart 6.5's, they are more clearer than the JL's we tried. Don't give up too much clairity, because what's the point of just listening to distortion. It just makes other boaters upset at you|
Do you have a picture of your set up? WHat amp are you running. Can I get the model # of the speakers. How much is a pair?
|I have 4 6.5in Focal speakers in cans on my tower. Hella loud and clearer and better range then the MB quarts. Did a side by side comparison before I purchased them. 5 out of 5 peeps during the testing process picked the Focal speakers as being the best sounding in the cans |
|Has no one tried the eminence 6's (Pro Audio)? These are the same speakers the NVS uses, only smaller and a little less RMS wattage. There cheap too. I saw them on ebay for $40 pair. Anyone? |
I have heard of Focal. How much are they? Can I have the model #? Do you have a pic of your set up. Thanks
|YO BRIAN!! I RUN THE NEW LINE OF KRACO. THEY ARE AVALABLE AT PEP-BOYS!!! NO CLARITY! THATS HOW REAL PIMPS "ROCK IT" WHATS UP WITH THE BOAT?|
|the model I got is the CA0165. They have tweeters that rotate so you can direct the tweeter sound in differant directions. They run about 200/pair. I do not have any pics I don't have any pics of the 2 pair on my tower and my boat is stored for the winter. sorry.|
|The pro-audio speakers indicate paper cones, anyone know if they are treated or how they do if they get wet?|
|I noticed that. I think you could get away with putting some sort of thin epoxy or waterproff spray on them. But how often do they actually get wet?? What do the guys w/ the NVS say about them getting wet? Are they treated?|
|check out cadence the loudest 6.5s i have heard http://luckydevildesigns.com/ |
paper,coated or not sounds like a bad idea. i saw the nvs the first time last weekend, and was like wtf. we were camping and every thing was dripping with dew in the morning. and what if it had of rained you have to take the speakers off the tower. the nvs i heard were loud but i dont think he had a sub or his cross overs set right. and the firey ring looked like it was rusting.
|882001, The NVS have paper cones. they are the eminece beta 8's and 10's. I bought a pair of 6.5's from Josh at luckly devil. The cans he makes are sweet, but they were loaded w/ fosgates. They just weren't loud enough. Josh has an awesome setup in his malibu. Were you in his boat? I talked with him for a little bit at the Pier last weekend. I noticed that rust on his grill guad too. I think those were audiobahn grills?|
|have you priced them form luckydevil? they are way to expensive. I got a demao pair for him for $330 about a year ago. I paid too much. Bu tI will give him credit on a very nice can design.|
|yeah we were camping with them. the bandidos have cadence. and they are loud. we were in the supra launch w/ 4 bandios. are you talking about the x star w the nvs. |
|they cadence have simliar specs to pro audio equipment. Yeah I'm talking abot the blue/white x-star that was dwon there at waketoberfest. you must have had a good site I was down closer to the crappers. We had the all black PS 190 @ our site. If you drove down the right way you proabbly passed it. I still thought the NVs was loud as hell. I told Josh he neded to put two more up on his tower. How does he liek that ski reel thing? |
|Brian, I don't have pics right now because I just stored the boat for winter. I am running them on a 300x2 Diamond Audio marine amp. Focal are as good a Quarts but I think a bit more spendy. I am running PKC which have a large seperate crossover. They run 440 a pair or so. |
|Thanks guys. I had someone tell me that 4 6X9's are louder than 4 6's? |
Do you think it is worth the money to switch to 6X9's?
|i doubt that 6x9 sound better than 6.5s. you will get a little more bass responce out of a 6x9 because it has more surface area.but that is what subs are for. cross over the 6.5s at 100-125 and id take 6.5s. running them fullpass they will distort.|
|maybe not soudn better, but they will be louder. Remember these speakers are directed at a rider whose proabbly 75' out. Get a decent brand and they won't sound horrible. Stay away from Kraco and you'll be ok|
|is kraco still in business? that off the hook!|
|My roomate had one of their cassette players in his CJ-7. Cost him 15 bucks brand new!|
|wow...you sure you guys know what youre talking about? I have a very major system in my boat... my Kraco 6.5's sound just fine even from 125 feet back (thats how far back we tube). Im pushing the Optimas line of amplifiers (Top of the line Radio Shack) with the Kraco speakers and they sound awesome! Really kicks. |
I challenge anyone in my area to a blast off.
|The Kicker RS-6 are awesome. |
Harold yes some of us do know what we are talking about. What you call that a system!
|Phaeton- Hey man> theres all love when we are tubing....but when we start kneeboarding- The music gets turned UP- we start blasting hard- my Kracos will blow you out of the water no problem. Although they will start to Krackle a little at around 200 decibels...any idea on how to fix that? |
Fine tune my amps maybe-crossover tuning?
|I think all of you are overlooking a big player in the audio market. DELCO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!|
|hope you got what you needed out of this thread Brian. didn't know the Kraco comment would get everyone reminecing. |
|Let me chime in. Brian is a friend and regular on Harolds boat, as well as Jude's and my'n. Harolds and Judes comment were a way of ribbing Brian, because he dosent even have a boat. Brian is so cheep that even if he had a boat I couldnt see him spending the ammount of money to make a system that we would even let him turn on when partying with us, Sorry Brian you got to pay the cost if ya want to be the Boss. LOL. |
|In that case, head down to your local flea market and tell them you want the "best" they got. They'll give their super-cooled, digital sound, chrome, 5000 watt amp with a pair of 8-way 6x9's for abuot $100 or whatever you have in your wallet|
|On a serious note. Brian your question what is the loudest 6-inc speaker. I think your trying to find speakers for a tower box correct?. So i think what your saking is what speaker is going to be louder than the next. My answer is. It all depends, I know speakers have a sensitivity rating on them, this might be the only document that can provide some information for you, but it only tells you how sensitive the speaker is. The higher the sensitivity the louder the speaker should be with a said watt going to it, so look at the specs for each speaker, But IMO is all B.S IMO the rest is all in your ear. What good is a louder speaker if is its falling apart. Example when you buy a speaker there is no standard test information that tells you if this speaker is louder than the next so the answer your looking for is all-subjective. There are some good recommendations above. Minus the Kraco I got started with the boat audio system's I like many of you knew that separates produced cleanest sound and that 6X9's were somewhat of a joke. I wouldn’t have never thought that 6X9's would have ever outperformed separates in any way. Many of you might have seen my old tower set up with all the Boss cans and MB-quarts separates. I sold all that stuff and went with 8 6X9's. The separates sounded great but they were maxed out and over time the tweeters would just turn off. They were not made to blast at that volume. The level we play at the 6X9's sound better because they could play at that level with out breaking up. |
So Brian: Get a boat first and then we can work on the rest.
|Well put Grant. I agree 100% other than pro audio equipment 6x9's work best in that type of environment. |
|Thanks Grant. |
Don't trip on the boat, it's on it's way. I ordered my tower box, and it comes with Audiovox 6X9's.I'm going to hook up my jensen amp with 18 gauge wire. It will be so loud
|brian here's a 6x9 box |
|FOCALS!!! I recently installed my new system in my XLV and did a boat load of research to make sure I was going to be happy with it. After all, we're not talking about a system in an enclosed car. Hell, that's easy! Let's see ya do it in open space on a boat? In fact this past summer a good friend of mine who works for Car Toys had me come down to a competition they were having. When I got there the guys running the show wouldn't let me enter my boat in the competition!! What? Too scared my open air system will beat your enclosed system? Anyway, I run 12 Focal 6.5" and they rock! Crank them all the way up with little or no distortion. Depending on the recording. You know your speakers are good when they distort at max not because of your amps or the speakers, but because of the recording! I have the bottom line, couldn't afford the top or mid, and they blow the top of the line of MB Quart, Infinity, Sony, Boston Accustics and all of them away. I would love to upgrade them, and someday I will. $$$$$ I HIGHLY HIGHLY suggest Focals. Nothing and I mean nothing beats them!!! I challenge anyone to a sound off against my system. And I mean anyone!!! They are the BEST hands down, no questions!|
I always enjoy hearing about someone that is in love with what they have put together. Like Harold's system, I'm sure it rocks.
I'm trying to figure out a way that the two of you can have your "Throw down" sound off.
One of you in Cali, the other in the Rockies...could make it tough.
Then again, how many "Big Systems" are there ... in the Rockies to know what "Big" is? You're the first one I've heard spew.
Don't get me wrong, Focal's, even the cheaper ones are nice when they hold up. And you are absolutely right about the differences of car stero and open area boats, but please don't think that you're the first to realize that....not on this board anyway.Just havin some fun.
|i havent done tower system yet, but i would consider horn drivers... |
they are very efficent and very clear... i do know image dynamics make a horn tweeter...but with all being said, most horn systems require equalization of some sort.
imo, the amp has alot to do with it....you gotta have clean power with regulated power supplies..
Yes you are correct IMO. Horn Tweeters, or more often referred to as HLCD's (Horn Loaded Compression Drivers) are indeed extremely efficient. So much so that an eq, separate power source and or attenuation and crossovers are essential. Depending on the method you choose would dictate the regulated pwr supply or not. Actually, I would recommend a regulated pwr supply in any set up. It's just that they are usually a bunch more expensive.
In themselves, actual HLCD power requirments are quite low. Again, several options exist on how to use them in a system.
As you may know, the NVS system uses 2 Titanium Dome 1 inch throat compression drivers mounted to a Horn lens with a dispersion of 60 by 40 degrees.
I've chosen these along with the larger cone woofers for the NVS system because they project the sound way beyond what ANY car based system can do. But that was the purpose, to get the most clean volume possible to the rider.
Regarding the "Eliptihorns" that Image D offers. The compression drivers IMO are a bit smallish for the task (actually designed for use in a car) and the horn lenses are not conducive to covering a large enough area i.e. wide but short, IMO. But, still better then most car audio based set ups.
the nvs look like the ticket....good desigh - the larger drivers (2- 8" or 10") per channel and the horns are the way to go.
how is the sound quality on the nvs ????? do they need to be eq'ed ?
btw, the regulated power supplies arent that more expensive...a little more but not that much (jl slash series) when you get into that class of amps (ie clean power)
i would at least do the class d and reg. power supply on the sub amp ( minimizes the biggest electrical draw on the system)
thanks for the heads up on nvs.
Thanks for the heads up on the Slash series. I honestly have not looked/tested those...yet.
Regarding sound quality, I'm always hesitant to say much about that because I don't want to come off like a salesman pitching his product. That's one reason I try my best to allow the interrested person an opportunity to check it out themselves...behind the boat, i.e. Free demos (in fact I'm doing another one today). Otherwise, I suggest you do a search on NVS and see what people that have heard them say. I think what they say would have more value then what I would tell you.
Regarding EQ's: Here again, may be personal oppinion but mine is "No" you don't. I am not aware of any NVS set ups in fact that are EQ'd at this time. I am a proponent of EQ's on any sizeable system but would say that they are certanly not needed for the average install.(then again what's average?)
Sorry for redirect on the thread. If you would like to know more on how they come set up and ready for a single channel per module, send me an email at the website and I'd be happy to give you more information and maybe figure a way that you can hear them. Or just give me a call 408-569-6040 Probably like you, I could talk about this stuff all day.
|We are going to use these HLCD on Jude's tower box, |
|Woops sorry the link dosent show the HLCD horn's If you want to see them they are the EH-2's you can see them in the Loudspeakers link on crossfire's website|
I've looked/listened to a set of these before in a car install.
Have you listened to them yet?
Since I didn't get my hands actually on them I don't know what size the throat is (I think 1 inch or less), or the weight or other data on the magnet etc. nor is that info on the website. Do you have any further data?
What else are you puting in the box?
|Grant, I see that you finished the Enzo a few months ago but have seen zero feed back about. How does it sound? You happy with it?|
|Duane; The Crosfire HLCD's are sort of new. I dont know why there web site dosent show there tec Info. One look at them and you can tell they are the real deal the magnet on them is about 5 inches around. No doubt they are gonna scream. We are gonna run 2 horns and 4 "8 inch" drivers shooting back. Also 4 "6 inch" componets shooting down. It should tear it up pretty good. |
check them out you might like them.
All this talk of Loudest tower speakers who the "F" cares. You might have the loudest tower but if you dont have the bass to bump with it then you just a joker LOL. Music has more notes then just high's
IMO its all about ballance.
Darren. The Enzo sounds great, I real happy with it.
|[b]Grant[/b], I never saw the finished Enzo project. Did you post up pics in a thread when it was done? If so, can you provide a link? If you didn't, could you post some up in a new thread? I'd really like to see how it turned out. |
Sorry for the hyjack guys. Now back to your regularly scheduled topic......
|Mike: Enzo tower box photos. Start to Finish |
|here's the link to the EH-2 horns |
looks liek its not working, go to "products" up top, then "loudspeakers" then "eh-2"
|Not too Highjack, but on NVS Sound Quality...it is good on the swim step, great 70' back of the swim step...Also, my system is not eq'd...but they are x'd-over at around 175 a little lower then Duane's recommends, but the driver is still barely moving but the mid bass just jabs in you the chest at that setting...|
|By BR (blr) on Tuesday, November 09, 2004 - 2:55 pm:
|Hey Kraig - I'll do a sound off w/ ya. |
|Are you ready to rumble? |
Kraig are you ready?
BR are you ready?
Let's get it on! wait a minute, where's Kraig? LOL just mess'n
|Not to start a peeing contest or anything, but I got a good chuckle out of Kraig's challenge. |
Put our boats 160 feet apart, facing directly at each other, and everybody can stand in the middle.
Add 12 more 6.5s and you might have something...
|Instead of this being a competition...if you guys want we could all meet out on the water and tie up. Then you could walk from boat to boat and see which speaker you think is loudest. I'm in for that. I'm running Pionner 5-way 6x9's. |
Grant you in? I'll bring the Casadorres!!
Not much else to do when its this F-in cold!
|Hi, Harold, |
Sorry to highjack post. Your system does ROCK and is the loudest system I have heard. There is always snowboarding to do in the winter. Let's go. Plus Shasta next season bought a houseboat, you and the boys got to go. Tell Billy and the Doughboy I said Hello!
|Walking boat to boat could prove painfull. At near full volume you are not able to stand on Joes' Babe Deck or Swim Deck. |
Harold, your joking with the 5 way thing right?
I know you put up something real nice but honestly I don't know, besides the W7's, what you did.
|Whats up Kimmy? You can email me its all good! |
I will tell everyone you say hello. Thanks!
Duane- No man...im not joking! I am running The pioneer 6x9's on my tower. Cheap speakers but they perform well for me. And yes they are 5- way 6x9's. Lucked out because they match the color of my boat. The back of our boats usually becomes a dance party- Right on top of the V drive. The stereo is usually right below full volume. At the rear of my swim deck we used Grants DB meter and it was at 125 db (Grant correct me if im wrong.)
At this volume they are loud and clear and barely starting to clip. Painfull......yes. But when you have a few women dancing with you...its hardly noticeable
If you want....there are a few people that are going out for new years day to the delta...we can meet up then?
|I can vouch for the pionner 6x9's too, they are cheap & look disco but they crank. |
|Alrighty then,I have seen them but not heard them. |
New Years Day? We usually try do do a double on that day/weekend, i.e. Snowboard Wakeboard but if that doesn't go down or the plan is to Wakeboard Sat, then the party on the Delta sounds great.
My recollection is that you guys go out of Orwood. That right?
If so you could even stop at my Hot tub to warm up on the way back...as long as it's not a sausage fest!
|joe ~ sick boat bro. 808's or 1010's?|
|Thanks Ant, they are 1010's running on an Orion 8004 amp. |
Duane is correct, NOBODY will stand on that sun deck while the stereo is at max volume. I've done it before for a few seconds. I didn't really hear music. My ear drums were rattling so hard it just sounded like a jet taking off. Stand 75 feet away, then your ears can handle it and you hear the true definition of "loud and clear."
Sitting in the back seat is no problem, as the sound just shoots over your head and it sounds great. You DO NOT want to line up your head with those big chrome grills though!
|Hey Joe- |
Hows the weight of those 2 1010 sets on your ZeroFlex? I know they are heavy...does your tower shake like a Buick on bad gas? I have the same tower and have considered migrating from my current 3 sets of B60s.
Duane- i know its been brought up b4...any plans to offer grills other than the flamer design? The price for 2 1010 sets is painful, but having to run flames too, i'll keep waiting!
|Duane- sounds good man. I think that Grant and I will be out new years day. I have never been out that day before....so this will be a first. No sausage fest here man....if it is...we wont be stopping for anyhing- wakeboarding all day and go home. Party with women not dudes! (If only more people knew this-there wouldnt be as many problems on the water) ha ha! |
Joe- Will you be able to make it out with your boat? I will be honest with you....I have never heard a boat that I couldnt stand on the back deck. The only place that I have not been able to stand in front of the speakers without covering my ears was at a House music night club- it was simply unbelievable
I would like to hear these speakers that you guys always talk about and meet you guys/hang out.
|Harold, I like the way you think. |
As we get closer to the date and a decent forcaste is in, we'll firm up the plans....looking forward to it.
Did we hijack this or what? sorry Brian etc.
|haha...its all good. Brian is a good friend of mine. Hes usually in my boat but now has an 05 SANTE on the way. |
Im in! Sounds good man...as it gets closer we'll get plans setup properly.
|Ok I have read all the posts and from what it sounds like, Correct me if Im wrong. You guys want to have a "NON sausage fest party" New Years day on the delta weather permitting, Where we can drink, play music, Listen to some banging systems and dance with some hot lady's,B.Y.O.H.L and pretend its summer. Humm Let me think about this????????? Sounds good to me count me in. |
We need to set some rules.
#1 No Country Music.
#2 Absolutely No Country Music.
#3 Absolutely Positively No Country Music.
#4 No Sausage Boats
#5 You must "Rock IT"
|ah damn man...I just got some really good country too! OK- I will agree to that....no country music. |
|Wuneyewilly- The speakers are definitely not light. I think each pod weighs 30 or 35 lbs. I live on a very rough country road, so the only time the tower shakes is on the drive down the road at 55mph. The shaking was starting to bother me, so I went through the hassle of tightening up the four main tower mount bolts, and it made a HUGE difference. Barely any wobble these days. |
Harold- I'm gonna have to skip the new years trip. January is for motocross, not wakeboarding! If Duane's there, I'm sure he'll be more than happy to let you stand on his sun deck and get blasted.
It's a shame you guys have to do this in January, it sounds like fun and I always do my best to meet Grant's party rules, especially the no Country Music law!
|Joe- Its all good man. Maybe we can meet up next summer. |
|Ok, I'm back and I've got to ring back in here. Thank You Duane, I am very passionate about my system. I am very pleased with it. No there aren't too many systems around here to compare with, but there are plenty at Lake Havasu. I went down there thinking I would be average and couldn't find anyone to compare. Most likely an off couple weekends for the big boys. Found one guy who raved about his system and other people raved too. I couldn't even make out what the music was because of all the distortion. Quality counts over quantity. GRANT: I agree, you need bump in the system too! But beyond that, it's not just being the loudest, it's being the cleanest at high volume or at max volume. I do believe that there will be a few systems louder, but at the sacrifice of clean sound. Do with little or no distortion. |
AND blr, LET'S DO IT! This summer, let's hook up do some boarding and compare choch size! LOL! It's all in good fun. But I DO STAND BEHIND MY SYSTEM!
|THIS IS HOW TO PARTY: |
|THIS IS HOW NOT TO PARTY: Maybe time to go home?....... |
|By BR (blr) on Monday, November 15, 2004 - 9:02 pm:
|Kraig - for sure! We can ride and chill. I do have a decent system, w/some definite bump and clarity, but more than anything just wanted peeps to see there is more than 1 ride with a system in colorado -grin- what color is your xlv? maybe I've seen it around, don;t do crazy chatfield too often but hit it some early mornings.|
|Harold thats some funny Shizzzzz. LOL |
Duane is this how you roll??? You are breaking rule #4 Big time. Your systems are so loud they blasted all the girls off the back LOL.
Joe knows how to "Rock It". Joe your a P.I.M.P
|You guys....I can't say not'n except "Busted" |
Maybe it's cus I'm not the young stud I once was. Maybe it's my old pick up lines that just aren't working anymore.
The truth acutally is that some of us are very happily married to women that know when to leave us alone. Here at Boardstock it was tough to get many ladies to commit to a whole day in one spot. And for rules, well lets just say I've broke'm all, and I mean all because rules are for sissy's......except the country music one!
Way to go Joe!
(Message edited by nvsairwarrior on November 15, 2004)
|Harold - Two words - Salami fest!! OK two more - sword fights!! Some man-boobs in the crowd - especially the one dunkin' the wiener! Bummer, I thought boats attracted the babes!! Maybe no VLX in the crowd!!!!|
|The ladies do like VLX's for some reason.... |
|WOOP WOOP! Pull over that a** too fatt. |
Damn! Nice View!!!!
|Whoa, what's going on here? Missed a couple days and the fun seems to have taken a turn. |
Hey there BUZZ, I've got a couple of words for you.
The ribing prior to your post was largly in fun. Altough some people like to make themselves look like a big "Playa" in my book that's all cool unless something gets personal. YOU crossed that line and made it personal because you don't now anything about the person you are singling out. I'm going to tell you something about him.
A near 4.0 High School senior and All State Nose Tackle, 2 time top 5 finisher in junior mixed martial arts. A very good wakeboarder. Just accepted at UC Berkely for next fall. But most importantly my son.
Your profile shows you at 45, I would expect any man by this point to have learned where the line is. Yet your words suggest you have not.
I would like to give you a personal invite to my home or anyplace else so my son, and I, can meet you and get to know one another. Hopfully you're a nicer person then your post suggests.
While in this sport I've meet a ton of very nice people. Just like most in this thread and the ones pictured. They all support our sport because they like not only the sport itself, but the people in it. They may not all be "Playas", but so what....the more ladies for those that truely are. They are all good people and in no way deserving of any personal attacks.
I was beginning to wonder if any a** holes existed in this sport. A sincere apology could renew my faith.
|unfortunatly, my boat is usualy a sword boat, its either wives and kids. or dudes . my wife wouldnt understand if i called a bunch of chicks to go wakeboarding. i do try to invite the dudes w/ the hot chicks.most of my friends wives/girlfriends dont ride and dont want to.|
First of all, to you, especially your son, and the others in the pic, my apologies. I absolutely did NOT intend for my post to be personal in ANY way.
I always check my posts before sending them, but I should have looked this one over much better. After looking at it again, it was over the line. I was in no way trying to single anyone out, or trying to make anyone feel bad. If it seemed that way (and apparently did), I am sorry. I was only trying to chime in on the "how not to party" caption above the pic, but should not have made any specific comments about anyone in particular. My only intention was "joking" about the number of guys in comparison, just like many other posts do. The rest should have been left out. Like I said, after looking back at my post, it was wrong. I have had my boat loaded with guys, and taken a good ribbing for it, all in good stride, but it was not in as much of a public forum as this one was.
I assure you I am not an you put it. Ask anyone that knows me, and you will find I am just the opposite. I am also not a "Playa". I have many guys and girls on my boat all the time, but I assure you I do not have the "playa" mentality.
I live for boating, wakeboarding, and hanging with friends just like you guys in the pic. I am a huge supporter of boarding, and have personally introduced probably close to 40 persons to boarding in the past 3 years.
As for the invite to your house, I would be glad to meet you both, but not to get thumped. I would probably offer you both beers, and offer to give you a pull instead. Maybe on the water someday we can meet, and you will see that I am not the a$$ you think I am (or the way I made myself sound).
Sorry to cast such a dark shadow on this thread. It was not my intention, and will not happen again.
|And again the wakeboarding community is at Peace! I love this community!!|
Thank you for your apology as it seems quite sincere.
One characteristic that seperates men from boys is the ability to recognize the times we stray from our normal beliefs and/or principles. We've all strayed at some point. I admire those that take responsibility for all of their actions.
Now...back to the partying!
|OK...LETS ROCK IT! Looks like this Friday we have a group going out to Berryessa...whos down? |
I guess the next day out is New Years Day?
|Harold, if you see the Hot H20 Centurion (orange) out there, ask him what the loudest tower speakers in the world are! |
|These Chaos casings with JBL 8" 3way 330w(max) 110w(rms) absolutely hammer. Big bass projection as well. Or to follow the topic , JBL do a 6.5" |
component that has 600w max (GTi series)
|Joe: Im glad that I can read this because I took my boat out today the delta....tuning my system in and I blew my eardrums out....not from hitting the water too hard but from my system hitting soo hard....I cant hear anymore....WHAT??? |
Loudest in the world? ROCK IT!
I'm not sure where you are heading but I have to say I like that JBL unit. Those of you that have followed the NVS life you know that I like the larger diameter woofers along with HLCD's. This JBL doesn't have the HLCD but I am interested in knowing more about the woofer and will check it out.
The 110 watt RMS is not something to boast and would like to propose to the readers that Max Watts whether it be RMS or just raw, does not directly translate to output performance.
Speaker failure or "Power rating" is usually set by the current draw before failure. This, in simple terms, is directly related to heat, or the ability to withstand it. Although different designs of motors can effect this in smaller degrees, the ability to deal with excessive heat separates the men from the boys. Yet, some simple physics can not be overlooked. The trade off that I typically see is in the voice coil itself that will use heavier gauge wire to withstand the higher temps. That's cool but comes at the cost of mass. More mass to move means more power required to move it. It's really a fine line...or art to balance everything together. In conclusion, that's why I propose the "Pro Audio" for tower speakers if the objective is to project clean volume to the rider. Car audio is NOT designed to do this.
Can you hear me now?
Harold, you're a funny dude. I just put my boat in the garage for the winter but if you have a seat open on the 1st, I'd like to take it and check out these Pioneer's. W7's I know but I have'nt checked out the Pioneer 5 ways.
The fall was unusually cold and wet, lets pray for a dry warm 1st.
|Duane: you put your boat away for the winter, Bummer, I thought we were gonna rock it on the 1st. Well I guess we can play it by ear. I know its hard to plan anything for sure. With us at the mercy of the weather gods. It seems like alot of people we down to go to Berryessa this weekend my self included and the weather changed my mind. Ill pray for good clear day on the first and look forward to hooking up with you all. I cant think of a better way to spend New Years day then partying on the water. Its just fun being out on the water rocking it when you know you shouldn't |
Harold you "kook" in the Voice of Lill John WHATTTT
|And the results are????? |
Who has the loudest system???
English people PLEASE!!!
I'm dying COME ON!!!!
Don't count me out on the first. I'm still closer then you to the ramp (about 1.5 mile). Just keeping things nice and dry while catching up on some routine maintenance. If the weather is good and the crew does the Snowbaord trip on Sunday (Jan 2) then we'll be on the water Sat the 1st for sure.
Ed, I'm not sure that anyone on this thread would have the "Loudest system" as that system probably changes monthly.
Grant, you any clue what might be the loudest? Jeremy Newberry I know has a pretty big system on his V230. (One problem on a SAN is that you run out of places to put stuff.)I don't claim to know any of the details but it pounds very well.
I would like to find the guy that says he has the loudest to the rider system though. As for me, I'm a bit more humble then to say I have the loudest to the rider. But if I found one louder, I could just add another pair of Entity 1010's and it would be very difficult to surpass.
I've set up two pair a couple of times for the purpose of doing a demonstration when the person wanted to compare the Entity 808 to the Entity 1010. I think it's kind of funny because rather then just catching people staring like usual, they start pointing!
I'll see if I can find a pic of this setup.
|so who has the loudest system this month.lol|
|Duane: Your right who has that loudest system depends on what week it is LOL. I would bet that compression driver systems like yours are very loud, Your really the first person to market and sell them. I have to hand it to you while everyone else is making and selling car audio speakers/in can's you went a diffrent route to make some real power. Im really suprised that no one else has steped up and copyed your idea. |
Yes Jeremy Newberry's system. I havent heard it first hand but from what I have been told its crazy. I was told it had so much stuff in it that the boat could not get out of the water. This was from a installer that said they had to take stuff out. And that the system was not very well thought out. It was a case where they kept adding stuff to make it louder and louder, and the just keot stuffing amps and subs where ever they would go, Another friend said that the boat hit so hard it felt like some one was hitting you in the chest.
So Big Ed why dont you buy 2 sets of Entity 1010's and then you can have the loudest system. Im sure Duane will make you a deal LOL.
|Grant ~ working on it as we speak |
Duane ~ Willing to hook me up and let Big Ed do some real advertising for you
oh yeah Clarions speakers for sale http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/8/200698.html?1101518423
Jeremy's V230: I've heard/seen it from down the beach a ways and was eager to see inside of it the last time I saw him but was a few minutes to late as he was in the process of leaving...maybe next time.
Compression Drivers: I too am a bit surprised about follow-on's. I know that Mike H. from Wakeside has been working on something and a sneak peak pic from the Expo showed a HLCD in one side of Defcon IV and an miderange in the other can. That's nice....but no competition for the Entity. Based soely on weight and size, the Entity may be tough to surpass. I won't say it's not possible (I myself am working on it) buy not easy.Thing is that the Compression drivers are somewhat heavy and good ones are expensive. I'll admit to not having heard one of the $400+ ones....it's just not realistic in terms of dollars. But, if you order it, I'll build it!
Anthony, Ed; I learned along time ago to "Never say Never" so give me a call. Who knows? send me an email if you lost my number.
PLEASE!..somebody buy those Clarions from Ant Bug! you probably won't be sorry....they're cheap right Anthony?
BTW, what was the topic of this thread?
(Message edited by nvsairwarrior on November 29, 2004)
|I know this is probably getting off the topic here but, The NV'S ROCK!!! The loudest and cleanest thing i've heard on the water. To big for the Illusion X tower with bimini. I'm waiting for something smaller of equal sound quality to fit. many props to you Duane.|
Thanks very much. It took me a minute to recognize you, especially since you haven't yet updated your profile pic with what is now my new favorite boat. It was nice meeting you and your family a few weeks back. Beautiful VLX!
I'll be contacting you in about 2-3 weeks.
|These Infinities have exceptional directional qualities , great sound at 80 ft. |
(Message edited by chaoswake on November 29, 2004)
|Shane Broughton (chaoswake), they look like the Evids in a smaller package.Same components?.A friend has the Evids and he can barely hear them.|
|"Topic History" |
Its funy when I look at how long the thread has become and the person that started it BRIAN.
He dosent even have a boat, and in the thread he said he wanted to upgrade his tower speakers "Sony Xplod's" LOL LOL LOL
Brian you have "NO boat" you have "No Tower" you have "No Sony Xplod's"
Fact is Brian just now put a deposit on a 05 SAN that will be here in late Feb, It will be very nice. We told him if he didnt pull the trigger on the new SAN we would expose him as a undercover bass fisherman and his life here on W/W would be over. Brian congrats on your new boat when it arives.
"Duane Back to the topic"
|michale detillion (michale) , tell your friend he needs more power to them (250 RMS)300 is pushing the limit , they can handle it. You should be able to hear them. |
|I second adam's comments, the Evids need more power if your not hearing them. The infinities above have only a 1" tweeter for high freq. First I've heard of them reviewed. Impressive they are throwing 80' effectively.|
|what's the scoop on these? any one heard anything about them? |
|Looks like they must weigh 50 pounds each. Skylon doesn't have them yet on their website even. |
|The Infinity® 6000M wakeboard speaker system is precision-engineered to deliver high-output sound to a distance of 50-ft for wakeboarding, waterskiing, tubing, or lakeside entertainment. It consists of dual, 6-in mid-woofers and a 1-in CMMD™ edge-driven dome tweeter that are encased in an injection-molded polymer that's resistant to UV rays, salt and water damage |
50' don't think that will cut it
|Immage Dynamics HCLD's with 2 8inc mid's |
these are Skylons Defcom 5 speakers $1600-$1800
(Message edited by whitechocolate on December 04, 2004)
|I've been waiting to see these since mid summer when Mike Helwig said that they would appear in the Fall. Nice work Mike and team. |
Earlier comments indicated that their would be some magic regarding weight. Can anyone share the size (width) and weight data?
Just checked Wakeside and they are apparantly 20 lbs each.
|By John (mibu) on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 8:34 pm:
|Hey Duane I changed my profile. What do you think of those Defcon 5's? They look a little big to me. Have you heard them?|
|The press release on the Skylon Deafcon Reference series will go out on Monday. The new Deafcon IV Reference is down to 16 pounds! The 2004 Deafcon IV was 66 pounds. There is also a new Deafcon V Reference that has two Image Dynamics 8 inch CX mid-bass drivers plus a HLCD horn setup. I heard the Deafcon V Reference at Surf Expo and was totally amazed. However, the final crossover was not even completed yet. Can't wait to hear the final version on my new boat. I'm in Portland so I need to wait until March to get my boat in the water. |
The HLCD based Deafcon IV and V will start shipping in January.
(Message edited by wakeside1 on December 05, 2004)
|Here is a pic of the Defcon 4's that are going on my new Bu. Boy, the 5's sure look nice!! |
|Buzz- The Deafcon IV Reference are nice and small, light weight (16 lbs for the pair), leave room for the lights, and cost $300 less. They have exactly the same HLCDs, just one pair of 8" mid-bass driver instead of two. |
I think we will sell more of the IV's than the V's based on the value and great sound.
Yea, I was looking at the 5's, not really serious, but definately looking. After looking at all my other equipment, and how MUCH I am spending on the new boat, AND sound system, and how much sound I need to get back to the rider, I felt the 4's would suit me more than fine. With the new Image Dynamics, and HLCD, they are going to kill it! Man, I can't wait!!! Both for my new boat, and the TUNES, which for me is one of the MOST important things on the boat.
Thanks for the input on the 5's. People are going to be killin' some fish with those.
The updated profile pic is great. Very Nice boat.
On the Defcon V's I think they look great. As mentioned above, I've been eager to see what Mike H. at Wakeside was cooking up. I know he had been working on this for a while now. Good job Mike.
I'd love to hear them. Also, some are asking what the width requirments are. Mike can you address this question?
|Thanks Duane. |
I enjoyed our discussions regarding high-end tower speakers over a year ago. I learned quite a bit from your experience with HLCD even before you released the NVS systems. You may recall that my early reluctance with HLCD was harsh sound in or near the boat. You convinced me that it could be overcome with proper crossovers and you have proven that with your NVS systems. My early discussions with Image Dynamics also confirmed that HLCD's can sound good up close and are a much better choice for 85 feet back if they are set up properly.
Skylon did a great job with the rest. I have a feeling that all major tower speaker manufacturers will eventually offer HLCD based on your early success and how I believe the Skylon Reference series will be received.
I don't have the dimensions yet but we plan to get those on our website as soon as we get them. I won't have the IV's or V's in stock until early January, but I will get the dimensions from Skylon.
|Found out this morning that the weight that I posted was per side, not per pair. The Deafcon IV Reference is still half the weight of last year's model (32 lbs vs 66 lbs). |
Dimensions and more technical data regarding the HLCD drivers will follow shortly.
|Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't having subs on a tower a waste? I thought for good sound bass had to bounce off something.|
|technically there not subs, there more mid-range. |
|The Deafcon IV and V's (or the NVS systems) don't have subs on the tower, these are actually 8 inch mid-bass drivers. They are still designed for 80 hz and up. However, four 8 inch mid-bass drivers on the tower do a better job in the range just above the sub frequencies than a 6 1/2 inch driver. |
We still recommend a sub or two in the boat for 80 hz down.
|Has anyone tried the equivilent of the Evid 6.2's but in pro-audio components? Basically two 6-1/2" mid-bass per side with an HLCD. What would be the difference in the sound heard by the rider if the crossover, amps and everything else was the same in the system?|
|A system with two sets of professional grade 6.5's (like the Image Dynamics CX mid-bass drivers in the Chameleon series) with an HLCD horn would be very similar to the Deafcon IV or V or the NVS system. The main difference is that an 8 inch mid-bass driver has more thump even considering a sub-woofer in the boat. It's like the difference between a big dog's bark and a lion's roar. |
A professional 8 inch mid-bass driver is very efficient clear down to 80 Hz with less than 4 db variation from 80 Hz to 20 KHz. A 6.5 mid-bass driver would drop off way before that.
You buy'em, I build'em. Do you think they'd sell?
As Mike has now found out, it's not just the spl, sq, or any other single facet of a speaker that makes it better then another in the open environment. Somewhere above I mentioned the "Art" of speaker design. And as an Engineer, giving credit to an "Art" is not easily done. But comprehendable when realizing that the quality of the output is really subjective rather then objective, i.e. different ears hear different things from the same sound.
As far as the Evids go, I still think they are a great value. I'm not sure if a Pro Equivalent would be much different the the NVS Entity or now Skylon DV. The issue as I see it is the HLCD size as well as the woofer size. I don't know of a decent HLCD that is less then a 1 inch throat (I'd like to go bigger). The larger woofer (bigger then 6 inch) is IMO a requirement as well.
Having both 8" and 10" in the NVS offering, I have been able to asses the differences in the two. While the 8" is awesome, the 10" clearly takes it to another level assuming proper power is applied.
D out (can't stay awake)
|I agree that 10" would sound better than 8" but I have found that many tower heights and/or biminis would have a problem with a 10" woofer. We need to think of the tall people that could hit their head on a speaker enclosure that hangs too low. Some towers are low to begin with. If you want a bimini to work, then the 10" could add even more problems. |
Two pairs of 8" is probably the best compromise.
Duane, do you sell more 8's or 10's?
I've been runnig two HLCD with a single set of 6.5 mid bass drivers and an addtional set of 6.5 in cans. The HLCD's have no attenuation circuit on them so they over power the mid bass. It is very loud but doesn't sound very good in my opinion. The EVID's sound better but not louder. With the HLCD's I can't even sit on the back of my boat, the highs are ear piercing. With the EVID's I could. IMO you need at least an 8 inch driver to keep up with the horns. I think Grant has a good thing going with what he's working on. I used the same HLCD's. I still think he'll need to use some sort fo attenuation circuit. I thoguth one of the hardest things to do was tune the system . Trying to get a good overlap of frequencies was harder than I thought. The horn lens i used was the "elliptihonrn". this was an issue as well. It was designed to be inside of a car. So when you pass over the wake or move around behind the boat, you would hit "hot spots" of certain frequencies. I think it could work, but trying to sell it and compete with NVS and the new Skylon???? hope you have good marketing.
Can you tell me where the crossover is in the new Defcon 4's. Is it inside the speaker housing (cans) or separate (outside where it can be mounted somewhere else).
|The crossover is inside the enclosure. |
The crossover is specifically designed to keep the horn in alignment with the mid-bass drivers so that the horn doesn't overpower the woofers.
The horns do get very loud, but they are in sync with the lows.
|Mike, Have you had a chance to listen to both the |
4's and 5's?
How much of a difference was there?
|I heard both at Surf Expo but we were constrained with how loud we could turn it up. The V's definitely have more bottom end, but the IV's would meet the needs of 80% of boat owners. |
I am working with Image Dynamics to measure the db at 80 feet with 100 watts RMS for the entire Deafcon Reference line. We will post on our website when available.
|Mike - You can pick up a cheap digital SPL meter at Radio Shack and the results end up pretty darn close to a full on acoustics analysis system for just getting a weighted dB reading. Naturally the latter gives tons more info. |
Cool thing about the $50 meter you can use it from a tube behind the boat in a ziploc without a big threat of losing expensive equipment. Certainly falls under the untouchable "high tech redneck" version of engineering practiced "round these parts".
Awesome job on the IV's and V's.
|Bill - The final production version of the Deafcon IV and V crossover will not be completed until after the new year. Image Dynamics offered to do full on acoustics analysis including measurements of SPL/Db at rider distance, frequency graph, etc once completed. They have all of the professional equipment necessary to do that right. |
I will get one of those SPL meters from Radio Shack though, sounds like a nice tool to have.
I need to give credit where the credit is due. My role was the original concept of using high-end pro audio grade components and HLCD (horns). Even with that, I learned a lot from my discussions with Duane. He had already done a lot of research and testing with HLCD before the NVS product. I often read these forum threads last year and that is really where the idea came from. I knew that those wanting very loud systems were not satisfied with the car audio components mounted in aluminum billet enclosures. Some of our customers told us that too.
Last year I created my own custom tower speakers using two pair of Image Dynamics Chameleon CXS 6.5 inch components. These component sets could handle 150 RMS per component set (600 watts RMS for the tower). The sound was so crystal clear and loud that I knew the days of Kicker car audio components were just about over. Most of the car audio components are now made in China and don't even get close to the sound quality or volume of Image Dynamics.
I then envisioned HLCD systems based on Duane's prototypes. I also knew that Image Dynamics was a leader in HLCD, mid-bass drivers, and sub woofers.
This is when I recommended to Skylon to work on a new project with Image Dynamics and create the the Deafcon Reference series. Image Dynamics provided all of the accoustical engineering, components including HLCD and crossovers, and Skylon did all of the enclosure development, front billet plate, and grill engineering. They came up with the innovative composite material concept that reduced the finished product weight by over 50%. They also come up with the incredible carbon fiber finish.
As you can see the credit needs to go to Duane, Skylon, and Image Dynamics. I got to enjoy conceiving the idea of the project and then standing back and watching the pros pull off an amazing accomplishment. The great thing, is that everyone had so much fun working together.
Because of our role (Wakeside Design Studio), Skylon offered that we could do their initial press release that went out yesterday.
Again, nice job. And thanks for the mention. I'll send you a pm with my address so you'll know where to send the checks. 7% right?
|Size does matter! |
Yes even with speakers. Since I was able to design in the 10" along with an 8" offering, and able to compare the two, I can appreciate the differance.
Like Mike, I too thought that even the 8" may be pushing the limits of available space. But when all the audio experts told me that I should use the 10, I managed to squeeze it into the design without having a completly separate unit.
But I was conscious of the "Headroom" and made sure that it was as close to the cross tube as possible. The Entity 808 has the same hang height as the popular "B" series speakers at 9 1/2 inches. The Entity 1010 is 1 inch more.
You may be able to see in the pic below how the grill edge is actually higher then the bottom of the cross tube.
Oh yeah, we've got some new grill options.
Since I've been able to compare the 8 vs the 10 I can tell you that the difference is notable. Not so much close up, but at a distance you can easily tell the diferance.
Then again, the 8's do get the job done.
Mike, you realize we will likely be asked to put up a side by side comparison don't you?
Will Skylon be bringing a finished Def V to the Pleasanton Boat Show?
|mike what is the lead time on def v's|
|I appreciate you guys thinking about head room!|
|Duane ~ Please tell me that I can now get these covers. Is this your new look? I like. |
|I second Antbug, nice improvement on the grills. |
If I recall correctly, at 6'4" short of putting speaks up top does any other solution keep you from becoming a Head Banger?
Like Mike has already said, some towers are really quite low. The ZeroFlex seems to be amongst the heighest I've worked with. The FCT is amongst the lowest of the traditional ones.
Then there is the Illusion. I'm 6'0" and if I'm wearing a hat, it hits the tow bushing tube in the rear ('05 VLX).
The new grills are special order now but will be available in early January as an option.
|Duane ~ I will call you tonight to discuss my order.|
|My Tige 24V with the Metcraft tower has great head clearance at about 7 feet. I'm just a few inches shy of that, so any speaker is going to be a potential knot on the head. |
I could still be OK if I can mount them to the side as far as possible and still leave room to walk down the middle. The Defcon V seems to stretch across the entire beam in the pics I see. On a narrow boat, they might not fit. I'm not sure the NVS is much narrower. I didn't see the size listed for either one on their websites. My bimini is way too low anyway, so the concussion potential of the speakers is not a real issue. I've learned to watch out for things.
Duane, I bought an amp capable of driving the NVS, the PPI pcx4125. Hopefully, its a good one. The office of budgetary support can't see the funds all disappear at once...you see where I'm going?? Sorry to be moving so slow. The new grills are also great looking.
(Message edited by talltigeguy on December 09, 2004)
|Teddy, We expect to ship the Deafcon IV and V in early January. Skylon just needs the crossovers to be complete. |
|I have had a couple PM's asking about the light bar on the tower with the Defcon 4's that I posted a few days ago. FYI, it is the "Mini Light Bar" from Skylon. Available through Wakeside.com. Probably will get one of those after I get my boat in a few weeks. Spent enough already!!|
You are a shrewd dude. The budgetary office seems to be well in hand. FYI, the sale is over on 1/1/05
Yes, the PPI 4125 is an excellent amp for a pair of Entity's. I'm not sure if any are left at the amazing $350 price but it was good while it lasted.
Thanks for the feedback on the grills. The flame grill was clearly a love/hate thing.
I also like the grills on the Def V, looks alot like the Fishman Tsunami ones but without the spoke hanging over the edge (it would have been a rope catcher for sure).
Antbug, thanks for the call and kind words. Wow, a customer willing to drive 400 miles to pick them up (and get some riding in). Big Ed, you have an awesome friend.
Buzz, hope all is well with you and yours.
Happy Holidays to all!
|Thanks Duane. You and yours also! |
Man, I like the new look of the Entity. Very nice!
Gonna be a nice holiday for me and my EXPENSIVE xmas present!!
Happy holidays everyone!
|Duane ~ The way I look at it is I am on the boat as much as Ed is and he is the one paying for the boat. I can a least try to help improve the best boat out there and your 1010's are the ticket. |
Can you tell me what ohms the deafcon IV's & V's are at?
(Message edited by JANSEN on December 10, 2004)
|All of the new Skylon Deafcon reference series (except for the I which is currently Kicker) run at 2 ohms in order to get the most efficiency and power from the amplifier. |
Now that we will be selling high-powered tower speakers we plan to add quality amplifiers that will make these systems excel. Most amplifiers these days are made in China and the quality just isn't there.
We are looking at True Technologies, Arc Audio, and Sound Stream. Most of these are made in the US and will make these new Skylon Reference (or NVS) sound loud and clean - emphasizing sound quality..
We know that not everyone can afford quality like this, but we want to make it available to those who know the difference and are willing to save up longer to get the prize.
|I just had Skylon measure the width of the new Deafon Reference V. The total width is 27" each side.|
|www.diyTower.com just got an HLCD/ProAudio section added, great comments on this post, please share some resources that should be added.|
|By KJ (akdoc) on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 10:22 pm:
Your speakers have really started a trend. I would love to have a pair but my bank account says no! However, I have a few questions regarding the pro audio equipment.
How did you wire the 2 bass drivers with the HLCD and get all that into just 1 channel?
I am assuming that you ran the bass drivers in parallel and into a crossover, and then ran the HLCD into the crossover, but I really have no clue.
At what ohms are you running after you get it down to the 1 channel?
I am thinking of starting a project for a tower system and would really like to go with the pro audio equipment, I just don't know the wiring aspect of it.
Thanks for you help in advance.
Thanks for the kind words.
As far as the bank account goes I really feel you on this. I too wish it was less expensive. To that end, we have tried to make it as easy as we can by offering the single unit. Then, if you feel that you want to go the full on system and get the pair, we will honor the adjusted "Pair" price for the second one.
As far as the crossover network goes, I think you have a good clue. This is a very critical area unless you are going to have independent control over everything. Even then, the HLCD cannot handle the same current/freq's that an amp normally puts out even in a Hi Pass mode. I found this out the hard way and fry'd a few Titanium domes.
Send me a pm with what you are thinking of doing and I'll comment where I can.
(The nominal impedence is 4 ohms.)
|I think this is post number 151 on this thread, maybe my third on this topic alone. Quite a popular thread. |
Seems that price is the single biggest concern when it comes to the NVS system. I am in the market for a new boat and therefore a new tower system. I have recently compiled a list of the components I may use in my next tower system. The Evids were OK but my ears need a little more to be happy. I truly think the HLCD/pro-sound approach is the only thing that will satisfy my appetite. The most recent system I designed on paper is composed of four 6" pro-drivers and a 1" HLCD mounted in a custom wood enclosure. The price of the drivers and crossovers alone is over $400. Add $100 for some decent looking speaker grills, another $100-150 for building supplies and clamps. Now a single Entity 1010 starts looking like a real bargain. It's likely that my trial and error engineering approach will likely lead to a few blown drivers so that cost should be factored into the mix as well, plus another $100. Once you add up all the costs Duane's systems look like a bargain.
Everything considered I feel very confident that NVS is currently providing the biggest bang for the buck. KJ, my recommendation is to find a friend and split up a pair of 1010s.
|The Skylon Deafcon IV Reference is the least expensive HLCD based tower speaker system that I am aware of. They sell for $1,300 ($1,170 considering the reward points). |
I don't think building a HLCD based tower speaker system is for DIY'ers considering the extensive crossover engineering that is required. NVS has put a lot into their design and Skylon worked on their design for over a year with the Image Dynamics audio engineers. They designed and built a crossover for each of the new models.
|By KJ (akdoc) on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 8:54 am:
Good point. When I started adding it up the cost it does escalate. The workmanship of the enclosure that I would make would not hold a candle to what Duane has in the NVS's. It looks like I will have to do a lot of convincing (the wife) to get the NVS's.
What amp would you guys run with a single 1010?
I imagine that a good amp is gonna cost 350 bucks, at least.
|Pardon my ignorance but I though a crossover basically just sends all the high frequency in the signal to the HLCD and the middle frequencies to the mid bass and strips off everything below what the mid bass can reproduce. Naturally picking the frequencies is the key but a given compression driver has a defined top and bottom frequency, as does a mid bass. On the ID site it states the mid bass reproduces 45Hz - 3kHz and HLCD's cover 1400Hz to 20kHz. Doesnt this define what the crossover frequencies should be? |
As a mechanical engine-ear everything electrical is a over my head, but maybe someone can shed light on what else goes into designing a crossover. I'm sure there's more to it but what?
|I don't think people usually use crossovers that just cut off sharply at a certain frequency. Instead, they have crossovers with different slopes, e.g. a high-pass crossover that starts to cut out at 55Hz and then gradually cuts out more and more signal until it completely cuts out signals at 45Hz or less. I just made up that example. I don't know if that would be a useful or available crossover spec or not. They might even have crossovers that don't just use a linear slope, but a curve. I don't know. |
Anyway, I guess that's where the engineering comes in. Not only do you have to pick the frequencies but also the curves or slopes that sound the best.
|Crossovers are combinations of resistors, capacitors, and inductors. These are the electrical equivalents of shocks, springs and a body of mass (not respectively, I forget which was which, hated that class). Designing crossovers is no less complicated then designing a suspension system where you need to control ride, rebound and absorbtion. |
Sometimes it is as easy as putting a capacitor in-line to attenuate low frequencies, kind of like throwing a spring on a boat trailer. This simplistic crossover provides attenuation dropping power 6 decibals per octave. If you add an inductor to this crossover the attenuation slope will increase to 12db per octave. Typical crossover slopes range from 6,12,18, or 24 db per octave. These come in the hi-pass, lo-pass, band-pass, and notch filter varieties. Once you figure out the crossover corner points and slopes then you start looking at attenuation networks, after that protection networks. When you are matching up a horn with 107db efficiency rating to a cone with 96db you are looking at an 11db step. Roughly speaking a 3db increase requires a doubling in power. The attenuation circuit also modifies the crossover cutoff characteristics. Protections circuits are typically light bulbs that just light up when the power gets too high resulting in a limited power transfer to the speaker (you can see these on the evid crossovers).
I used to build all my own crossovers when I was installing car stereo's in the early 80s. Car speakers are pretty forgiving, unfortunately HLCD are not. I am still debating if I really want to roll up my sleeves and get dirty with these things.
|Im going to use one of these in JUDES boat, it will be a nice way of adjusting crossover points without having to do it at the amps. |
I plan on running a seprate amp for the Horns and then another amp for the Mid's. That way I can have 2 seprate gain adjustments and 2 seprate crossover points all to be adjusted by this
more info here
I think these are running around $600-$700
this is a optional control unit. So you can have the main unit tucked away and use this to do all your adjustment's these are another $125
Its a good thing Jude is making all that extra money working as a stripper, He's gonna need it.
|I've been told that doing a crossover correctly on a HLCD based system is much trickier than conventional or the horns will over power the mid-bass. Horns can sound very harsh if the crossover isn't right. That is why a home-made HLCD system isn't for the average person. I think Duane would agree with that. |
(Message edited by wakeside1 on December 12, 2004)
|I would agree with what Mikeski, Mike H., and Grant have said. |
As with different speakers, you can only learn so much from a spec sheet. Sure you can start to see performance trends relative to the data, but the final test for me is always just listening. And that's not just me listening either. The simple fact here is the data (even if in controlled and "Like" conditions) is never in the environment you intend to use the speaker in.
I started out with a simillar approach as what Grant is using that gives you seemingly infinite control. From a manufacturers perspective however, it's insane to add all the components and subsequent cost when if you could determine the right characteristics, just build a fixed network and be done with it.
In Grant's case, he MUST provide the control or, analyze, and analyze, develop, analyze, redevelop, and then fabricate.
I also use professional resources to help and am always trying to improve the situation.
I think Mike H. is on to another means of improvement by offering amplifiers. A few Tower speaker guys offer this and I think it's a good way to go if: 1)quality product, 2)competitivly priced.
I've been struggling with this since the beginning but hopfully soon can establish a relationship with a quality manufacture....name to be announced soon. (Hint, it's made in central Cali) Point here is that even amplifiers impact your results. Just when you think all is well, then someone puts a POS amp inline and you wonder what happened.
The last statement I'll add about the C'over's is phasing. Be careful as odd order c'overs have an impact.
Some food for thought, in concert situations, delays in certain frequencies are deliberatly created to ensure that all the waves arrive at the same time to the listner.
Oh and Mike H, I consider the Enity 808 single to be the least expensive Hi Performance HLCD based system at only $895.
This will compete with 6 6.5's up close, and blow them away at 75 feet. I'm sure some will find that hard to believe.
(I get more demos this way)
What's unbelieveable is this thread!
|If someone were to put a single Entity 808 on a tower, would they just mount it in the center of the tower? I have never seen a boat with a single tower speaker but it should work. |
I'm sure that a single NVS Entity 808 or 1010 or a Skylon Deafon Reference IV or V would out perform any any non-HLCD based system at 75 feet.
|I should have one 1010 (w/ polk momo grills) mounted by the weekend. I'll try and post pics by monday and let everyone decide for themselves. Mine will be mounted directly in the center. |
|Single HLCD system |
|one more |
Yes I agree once again. I find it really difficult for people to comprehend the performance....until they ride behind one.
I'm even hesitant to demo in a parking lot while on a trailer. It's just not the same as while riding.
The other thing is the "wow, that's alot of subs" comment. I used to get a bit annoyed but now I think of it as an opportunity to share some knowledge.
Mike, will you be visiting the Skylon booth in Pleasanton? Looking at the floor plan I see it's right accross from Kieth and Loud Liquid.
|The Pleasanton boat show is a "Manufacturer's" show so it is very regional. Manufacturer's like Skylon need to do a booth with the local retailer. Since Wakeside is in Portland, OR and our market is the whole USA and Canada, we do not qualify for a local boat show like Pleasanton. |
It would be nice just to come down and meet others in the industry even though we can't do a booth.
Do you have a pic of the top of a 1010? Do the mounting brackets come pre attached or can they be mounted in different positions. Does the front of the horn come off so I would have access to installing different mounting hardware?
I have a Samson tower now… see attached photo from their web site.
For mounting one 1010 on my tower… I am trying to determine if I will need a different way to secure it. I think the flat bar built into the underside of the tower will limit my ability to use your clamps.
Do your famous demo on them!!!
The clamp location is easily changed. We have pre drilled 6 different locations for each of the clamps. This equates to 3 front and 3 slightly rearward positions for each of the clamps.
We have not yet worked with that tower as yet but would like to. It looks like a nice style but I can't say too much from that picture.
However, with that image, my first thought is to consider mounting on the front tube. It appears to be round and of adequate width.
BTW, you should probably use the email link at the web site for more fit and install q's www.NVS1.net
Also, could you comment on the lights? NVS is now offering lights and the ones you have appear to be one of the models we are considering.
Mike, will your brother be at the show? I'd like to meet him sometime as well.
I believe that Tom will be at the Pleasanton boat show. The entire Skylon Deafcon Reference line should be on display and ready to test listen. Nothing like listening on the water at 75' back though.
They also have a great new adjustable tower that is similar to last year's Xtreme tower except the swoop is more aggressive and the tubing is 2 3/8" instead of 1 7/8". You will see it at the boat show as well. You can see the image of the new tower on Grant West's post on this thread on 12/4.
|Mike, thanks for the heads up. I agree with the 75 feet. I chose a booth position that will facilitate that somewhat...as opposed to facing a wall or something. |
I'll be sure to walk over and introduce myself.
Personally, I really like the fact that tower manufactures are going with stonger construction. In retrospect I think relying on the integrety of the boat hull to supply strength for the tower has proven to be a misguided notion.
I'd be interested in knowing how much it has cost the boat/tower folks and boat owners in terms of repair dollars for glass cracks and weld cracks etc.
Since the pic doesn't show the top very well (so many speakers in the way) can you tell us if a hinge type connection exists for collapsing to a very low profile? Does the rack support disconnect rather easily?
|The tower folds down below the windshield with very little effort.|
|I am posting only as this is the only post worth the incredible amount of information you can get to make a wise decision. I have learned allot about sound and audio...what works for someone doesn't work for someone else. The The costs and time to make end results. I have learned that if you want something nice you must pay the piper for giving you what you want. We all work to support our passion and to pay the bills. I can say from research that you cant save by doing it yourself if you don't value your own time. Duane and all these guys are not making the kind of dollars that these tower fabricators are making I can tell you that. I have priced Duane's parts out and I have no idea how he can make a living doing this. Sure you can save a couple hundred dollars but ....warranty...research..customer support.... it's just not there. I would rather see more input into tower fabrication. "Yes"... $300.00 max on tower materials......That's a big mystery to me. even at $10.00 a bend...where do you get $2,300.00.... I will be ordering from Duane when I am ready.. I hope this thread continues as it is only improving what we get in the end.... Thanks all......|
|Chris ~ I here what you are saying and I used to work for a guy who builds towers. The cost of everything sounds correct, but you are leaving out all the time it takes to cut, bend, weld, install etc. etc. etc. Not to mention the cost of machines I.e. Benders, CNC. |
Another thing to remember is the tower fabricators can not do these towers out of there garage. Most of the time they need a shop big enough to store a few boats (and that on top of all the equipment)
As you can see the $$$ start added up, but again I agree they are expensive.
|Hey antbug, yes i do agree it takes time..but not worth what they are charging....but i dont want to change the subject of this thread by may disbeliefs in tower prices. i would rather pick Duane's brain on the perfect sound system.....|
|After this weekend I will post some pic of the 1010's w/ the polk momo griles on Big Ed's X2. |
|For tower builders dont forget liability insurance, patent royalties, dealer margins, employees, taxes, etc, etc. We have been approached by several boat companies about OEM but becuase of our pricing structure it wont work unless we raise our prices. For OEM products that are first sold to the boat company, then to the dealer, then to you there are a lot of hands in that pot which is why you see the cost of OEM towers and accessories where they are, IMO. |
For speakers, the cost of the audio is so high for good components I agree, it's hard to make money at tower speakers. Move to HLCD w/ProAudio midbass systems and the cost of components is really up there.
I also see an illogical oversupply of companies providing good tower speaker products in this market. Anyone see the latest WBM, several new tower speaker players in there.
People seem to always complane no mater what the price is for a said item. I understand that you dont want to throw money out the window and getting a great deal is very important. For you 4,000 dollars for a tower box or speakers might be way more than you would ever spend on your whole system. To someone who's passion it is or wants it a certan sound $4,000 is the price you have to pay to get that. Example your not going to win in car show with your lowerd Sion against a Lambo. LOL, IMO the NVS are cheep. I think that saying "You have to pay the cost if you want to be the boss" is funny and true. So all you ballers on a budget go to e-bay and search tower speakers if your looking for cheep sound.
But if you really want to rock it save your Penny's. BTW I did a test. Playing country music on your system will destroy your tower speakers warning NEVER PLAY COUNTRY music. LOL
|Ok, like a 5 yo waiting for Santa, I went home to check on the delivery of my suurprise! My one Entity 1010 arrived. They look incredible with the new grills on them. I couldn't wait to get everything hooked up on my boat so I decided to hook it up to the sony surround sound in the house. I put in Breakin Benjamin's and turned it up gradually to about 3/4 of the way. It took me a sec to notice but my roomates dog had pinned herself in the corner, scared _hitless. I immediately turned it down. I coaxed her over to me, and noticed she had pissed herself! This is only the second time I've ever seen her do this. The dog is a party dog. The dogs name is beer spelled backwards. She knows what loud music is. Two should be illegal, I can't imagine how loud it will be with the proper wattage. I'll have the pics posted monday. FYI>>>For the PETA people out there, I am an animal lover and would never intentionally harm my dog or my roomates. |
(Message edited by acurtis_ttu on December 17, 2004)
|Hey, Grant, I was never complaining about prices. I agree with you fully....Your boat is a testement of quality workmanship. A true custom boat. Enities are really well priced.Monster towers also well priced.If i where paying over 2k for a tower...i would expect to see something more along the lines of a Jessie James west coast chopper style tower than a tuna tower... Thats all i am saying. Oh, and thanks for all the pictures you post of your work...It is really helping me with my boat.....|
I noticed on wakeside that the Deafcon III have a higher RMS rating than the Deafcon IV's. Is this correct?
|The Deafcon III can handle more RMS power than the Deafcon V but they don't put out the Db at 85' like the Deafcon V. If the primary goal is incredible sound quality in and near the boat, the Deafcon III is definitely the way to go. |
If one had a professional, clean and powerful amplifier like the one of the high-end Tru Technology amps, the Deafcon III's could easily handle 500 watts RMS per side at 2 ohms without distortion or speaker damage. These systems are all tested with 500 watts of professional level power without any damage when they are QA'd.
The problem is that most use Chinese made amps that have undersized power supplies and inferrior design. In addition, when people drink, their hearing becomes dulled and they crank it up until their unclean amp distorts and blows out the speakers.
|Mike, Which amp(s) would you recommend? |
How do the Fusions compare to the III's and the Alpha's?
(Message edited by 99air on December 19, 2004)
|adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu)I met you at the delta one day. I have the black and white calabria with the 2 1010s.Glad to see you got rid of the evids.And dont worry about the dog.The first time i turned mine up I pissed MYSELF.|
|adam, after looking at your profile i guess it wasnt you.|
|I'm still waiting on the pics from how the one 1010 looks. Rushing it up to the river, I forgot the digital camera. I should hopefully have something up by the end of the week. One is definatley loud enough, but they are not quite as wide as I thought.|
|adam ~ I should have pics soon also, but my question is... if they were any bigger how would 2 fit?|
|Ken, I will discuss amps soon, we are in the middle of an amplifier project. Most of the amplifiers are made in China now and are not at the quality level that I want and many of our customers would expect. That is why we discontinued the four brands that we offered last season. We want to make sure that our amps can handle extreme marine conditions, perform as well as the spec sheets show, and the company stands behind their products (best would be zero warranty). We believe we have found the right line. |
Regarding Fusion, Skylon Deafcon III Reference, and Titan Alphas, I would break it down this way:
The Fusion Combos use very high-end Diamond M3 series components and sound better than 95% of the wakeboard tower speakers out there. They can handle 150 watts RMS all day long without problems. Every review I have seen said that they sound great. The value is incredible right now at $699 per pair.
The Titan Alphas are available with MB Quart Discus, Reference, or Premium series components. All three sound good and can handle 130 watts RMS but the Reference and the Premium have larger diameter tweeters and sound even better. I would guess that the Alphas with Reference or Premium would sound very comparable to the Fusion Combo's. Two sets of Alpha I's would sound better because they would have two pairs of 6 1/2 inch mid-bass drivers while the Fusion has a pair of 6 1/2 and a pair of 5 1/4 mid-bass drivers. Alphas are known for their great styling and very light weight enclosures.
The Skylon Deafcon III's have two sets of marine grade (Poly) Image Dynamics Chameleon CX components. Anyone who knows ID knows that these components are in a whole different league than Diamond M3 or MB Quart. They can handle 250 watts RMS per side (even more with a high quality amp) and their sound is ultra high quality. For in and near the boat, there may not be a better sounding tower speaker not to mention ultra light weight composit enclosures and the carbon-graphite finish option.
If one is interested in high volume, high quality sound for the rider, then NVS and Skylon Deafcon IV or V reference is the only way to go. The horn loaded compression drivers (HLCD) and the 8 or 10 inch mid-bass drivers will do as Adam and Michale described above and the sound quality remains very high.
I sent you a PM. Can you make a comparative statement regarding the EVIDS you used to have? Or is there no comparison between the EVIDS and one 1010?
|This could be interesting. I thought this thread was dead (finally) and told myself I wouldn't post again, but this will be an interesting comparisson. I'm sure different, like a bit lower freq's if tuned in, but louder? |
|Talltigeguy, I responded, but for everyone else. So far I only have one 1010 on my tower so can't respond to a pair. I'm using the same amp I was for the pair of EVID's as I am for the one 1010. Same crossover frequencies but the gain is turned down a bit more for the 1010. The one 1010 is definately louder, no questions about it. Both EVID and 1010 are a little harsh right at the back of the boatt when turned up to riding volume, but like Duane said the lower frequencies you hear back @ 75 feet make the music sound alot better. With the EVID's you get all the higher frequencies back at the rider. which is ok for some music, but start playing rock and the EVID's don't sound very good. Throw some rock to the 1010's and and they sound just as good. I've only been out once with this setup, it was preety windy and they still sounded great. I actually had the driver turn it down a little b/c it was too loud. Duane has managed to tune the horns to be perfectly in sync with the drivers. At lower volumes they sound excellent in the boat. The horns don't overpower the drivers at all IMO. I've worked on a custom setup using horns and have heard what it sounds like to overpower drivers w/ horns. Anohter good comparison someone used to describe the 1010's to me and I ound to be true. When listening to the EVID's, if you know the song you can hear everything, put in some music you don't know and you'll have a harder time hearing it. With the 1010's you can hear and understand the words in music you've never heard before. All and all the 1010's are a great system and are well worth the money. I still believe the EVID's are the best bang for the buck. At under $400 for the pair with clamps, you can't beat it. |
|Duanne, Mike, Adam |
Is the following what I should consider before spending that much money?
If I want to here the music while riding, invest in the NVS or Skylon (IV or V's)?
If I want sound quality in the boat and on the beach, invest in something like the Skylon II's or III's?
I'm not bashing any products, just trying to figure out my priorities before I spend that much money. Sounds like they are all great products worthy of the cost! Help me decide.
(Message edited by JANSEN on December 22, 2004)
Thanks for the review. I'm thinking that several people will be able to benefit from it.
Chris, Regarding the music 1) for the rider, 2) in the boat, 3) at the beach. My personal philosphy is:
1) Pro Audio equipment ONLY! (about 1KW)
2) Car Audio equipment does a real nice job (about 500W)
3) appropiate Fadding between 1 and 2 above is all you need with the following assumptions:
The interrior is fitted with at least 1 sub (about 500W)(does depend somewhat on your music choice) i.e. the more you like Hip Hop the more sub you will want. Also, the interrior should IMO have 4-6 good quality 6.5 drivers.
IMO putting speakers in the bow is unnecessary but that's just me.
Depending on your goals, this will provide good quality sound at modest to loud levels for each of the 3 conditions you mention.
Now, having said that, you may not be the biggest and baddest on the beach (at least around these parts) but you should have a very nice system that would be well beyond the average.