|I live in a private lake community. I just got our last paper, and on the front page was an article about how the new sport of wakeboarding is causing concern among residents due to the large wake. It went on about the size of a wake and the damage it causes. The four options they see are. |
1. Ban all wakeboard boats or boats designed with hulls to create a bigger wake.
2 Ban all Hydraulic weighting devices.
3. Ban the use of wake plates, wedges, and any device used to create a large wake.
4. Ban wakeboarding period.
I need some help. I think I got myself on the committee to discuss this before it goes to the board. The board is 6 members, none of whom share a remote interest in wakeboarding. The sport is really catching on here, and I would hate to see the minority pass a rule against the wishes of the majority. From the time I hitch the boat, its gassed and in the water in less than 10 minutes. Id hate the 45 min drive to the river. Oh yeah, currently there are only 2 "wakeboard boats" on the lake out of a couple hundred boats. Thanks Greg
|By Flux (flux) on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 8:11 am:
|There it is, you guys are only 1%, so how can there be such a problem?? |
Sounds like the crabby seniors simply need something to bitch about.
Wind chop on a big lake will do more shoreline damage than 50 wakeboard boats.
|What are they claiming the "large wakes" are disrubting? Damaging? I don't think normal "laws/rights" are applicable in a private community. Hopefully everyone can compromise, and not put a total ban on it. You pay your community dues to use the private lake, so you shuold have a say.|
|Man, one bigger boat, 30-footer plus, creates a wake a lot bigger than most wakeboard boats. Lame! They need to ban these too then. |
Sometimes out on the lake I'll see wakes that seem four feet tall out of those things as they cruise at 15, that can almost swamp a typical wakeboard boat.
|How big is your lake? I would compromise on the ban of weighting devices. Know one will know if you fill your ballast or not. If there are bigger boats on the lake, I would definately bring that up, and what Flux said about wind chop. Plus you pay to play just as much as the old bastards. Don't let them push you around. How many child killing jet skis do you have on there? Doesn't sound like a Holiday Lake to me. |
(Message edited by psudy on October 13, 2004)
|Greg, it's an uphill battle. However, I think your best bet is to present options rather than oppose the ban. There are hundreds of ski clubs around the nation that have private venues specifically designed for ski and wake use. Many of them incorporate ideas to help reduce or eliminate the effects of wake and land erosion. I would suggest you contact one or several of these clubs to see if there are valid options you can present to the committee, helping to strengthen your case. Also, get information regarding weight comparisons between wake-specific and other types of boats. Many run-about and cruisers will create the same damaging effects as wakeboard boats. Good luck.|
|You might also try to explain that baning wakeboarding will hurt there property values.|
|They tried to ban wakeboarding here at Canyon Lake, we gave them the main lake (no wake enhancement devices), but we can still rock the backwater, where the water is way better anyway. |
They used the same excuse, that the big wakes were ruining the docks and sea walls. Post main lake/no wake enhancement compromise, had an independant study/survey, (cost 100k), and found out that the wakes were no more damaging to the property than rollers that were created by the wind, people plowing through the water in their pontoon boats, and the patrol boats (frequently plowing). Wakeboarding had very little impact compared to these other factors. I do not feel sorry for the lakefront owners, as they can afford lakefront, they can also afford to do some preventative maintenance on their docks, too. Comes with the territory.
If it were to come down to banning wakeboarding, or imposing wake enhancement limits on all the waters here, we were prepared to bring lawsuit, because wakeboarding is the only reason most all of the wakeboarders moved here in the first place, and if we had been informed previously, we would have never bought our homes here, knowing we couldn't wakeboard.
(Message edited by socalwakepunk on October 13, 2004)
|By Flux (flux) on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 9:14 am:
|Try some science on their asses. Thing is, a large wake from a wakeboard boat is probably equivalent to 1.5-2 wakes from regular boats. If there are a couple hundred boats on the lake, then it is hardly logical to blame 2 boats for shoreline erosion and property damage. Like I said about windchop, a mildly windy day will put more energy into the surface of the lake than tens of wakeboard boats could ever hope to do. |
Like you said about the 30 ft boat on your lake, a deep V-hull displaces a whole lot more water than your shallow hull wakeboat. Also, wakeboarders tend to only go out when boat traffic is low, and limit their big wake hours to good conditions. Most typically do not run their boats for more than a few hours. Wakes dissipate fairly rapidly, so perhaps they could limit the shoreline proximity for wakeboarding, give a shoreline cushion for such activities or perhaps restrict weighting near shoreline areas that are protected.
Simply remind them that damage on the lake is caused by the total amount of energy put into the surface of the lake. If there are 50 boats out there and 1 or two of them are wake, then the extra energy is fairly low.
Definately explain wakeboarding as a sport and how much popularity it has gained with all generations of boating enthusiasts. Snowboarding experienced the same thing, and eventually resorts who wanted families to come and spend their dollars had to allow it. Funny how every mountain now features numerous terrain parks. Wakeboarding will have the same effect. Lake communities that limit weighting will deter potential buyers, and sales of those homes will be more difficult.
Also remind them that wakeboarders and skiers tend to be the most safety conscious persons on the lake as they have a rider to watch out for. Also, they tend to drive slowly and in a straight line while weighted and pulling a rider.
You may have to simply go door to door with a petition, explaining to folks what the sport is all about and how the kids love it and how we are a respectful group of safety minded boaters.
Good luck, it would be sad to see a lake ban weighting on such a rediculous premise, there are options. Heck, invite them out on your boat for a spin so that they can see first hand what really goes on.
The only lake in our town is a resevoir that restricts body contact with the water. A private fishing club is allowed to boat on it, period. I am trying to think of ways to get wake and ski boats on there every once in a while, but I doubt it will ever be. Good luck
|BTW here is some data on U.S. participation levels, and demographics (household income) http://www.wakeworld.com/news/2004/sgma1.asp|
|Hey Flux....not that I'm disagreeing with your statements, becuase I'm not...However, at least on our lake the majority of a-holes driving on our lake are wakeboarders. I think pointing out the group as being saftey conscious as a whole is not neccessarily a good idea, because what if at his lake they are not. |
I think the best angle out of all the input I have heard so far was the one about the current number of people with "wakeboats". If it's a small number, that will appear to be good. I would not point out that this is a growing community of participants, because the thought of more boats discredits your original argument. Also, anybody can put ballast bags in any boat and create a larger wake, so banning wake boats specifically does nothing. Perhaps fat sac ban is the best compromise if something must be given up?
|By Flux (flux) on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 11:10 am:
|Right on Eric, I too am noticing alot of ahole boaters with wakeboard style boats. These are the powerturners and drive too close posses. Luckily, I have been educated on this site so safety is always my main priority. I also try to give everyone on the lake a break when I can knowing that we put out a kneehigh wall of water. |
Good points Eric, I was simply trying to get every positive aspect out there that I can think of, food for thought kinda stuff, your aruguments are quite valid and hopefully this helps Greg and any others out there who face a similar situation.
I happened to have been a snowboarder at a mountain that had considered banning snowboarding in the early 90's. Beaver Creek to be exact. The homeowners association was considering a ban. Luckily some educated folks came out and dissuaded them, pointing out that families will not come there due to the ban and their kids wanting to board. Jake Burton himself showed up to help out at the request of some of the local shops. I think Greg faces a similar situation and there could be alot more of this as people catch on to wakeboarding boats being loaded down and the ahole crowds drawing all the negative attention.
I have considered passing out the "down be that guy" pamphlet at my local lake, just so people understand that the way they drive and act effects the overall fun to be had.
|Heres fuel for your fire: |
Address the board and ask who carries the Directors & Officers Coverage before you voluntarily join. If they dont have any STAY AWAY. If they do coverage and they should, suggest they contact their carrier because if they pass an ordinance wrongfully without a full association membership vote threaten to file a claim against each individually and as a group. A few cannot decide for the majority and they must explore all options fully before making reccomendations. I hate Ho associations that are loosly run and think they can bully everybody. Ask to see a copy of the CC&R's relating to the boards power to enact an ordinance. Not suggesting being an outcast and threating trouble just advising to know your rights as an owner and paying member.
|Thanks for the input so far. The lake already has a rule limiting boats to 20ft and 290 hp. A fishing boat can have a 250hp, but noone there understands the difference btween torque and top speed. It actually came up in a discussion because the newer deck boats can be up to 24ft long, and put out a lot bigger wake. Get a bunch of weekend warriors out there doing some "powertubing", and your gonna have some big waves. We rarely even ride on the weekends, unless its at sun up. |
I am actually hoping to have them drop one and four from consideration, and have them focus on the other two. Id rather make friends with a couple chubby people, than have my boat banned from the lake. I think rule 1 would be hard to enforce because a wakeboarding boat is hard to define. I know I almost bought the wakeboard pontoon myself.
Thanks for all the input, and Ill keep you guys posted if your interested.
|socalwakepunk, I heard a rumor that the comunity spent 2k on a dog to chase off birds, any truth to that?|
|Hi Jeff, any chance we can see a copy of that report? Might help Greg and others in similar situations too. |
|Yup. They were trying to keep the migratory birds (coots) away. The waterfront homeowners wanted to keep the birds from pooping on their docks/property. Didn't work, so then they tried pyrotechnics - driving a pontoon boat, setting off cherrybombs. Only thing that did was freak out the whole canine population of the lake (wonder how much the screen door guy made off of that). |
|Greg, I don't mean this as a slam on you in any way, but this has got to be one of the all time silliest issues I've ever read about on this board. |
Go to your meeting with these folks and argue the following.
1 - The term 'Wakeboard boat' is undefinable. I've seen everything from a '63 StarCraft outboard with a fat sat in it to an '04 SANTE pulling wakeboarders.
2 - Anything you impose will be incredibly expensive to your 'Private' community to enforce. The local sheriff's marine patrol (or equivalent) will enforce standard boating rules, but I guarantee you they will be less than interested in enforcing 'any' private rules/guidelines. That means you all will have to hire somebody to do it, and I'd guarantee you that the folks conplaining currently aren't going to pony up any $$$ to pay for this enforcement. That should get your committee moving in the right direction.
Couple these two arguments with the already stated fact that only a very small percentage of the boats on your lake are wakeboard oriented, and your committee ought to agree to simply walk away from this issue all together. Anything less would be moronic.
|Gotta throw this in...what type of audio systems are in the wakeboard boats? Maybe the wake size is a front for an alterior motive...any of the wake boarding boats been jammin/thumpin the tunes? |
|Mike, not meaning this as a slam, but when they want to ban wakeboarding on your lake, river, whatever, it wont be as silly. This is a private lake, private security. What the board decides goes. I do plan to bring up the definition of a wakeboard boat and really work on that. We do have a private security boat, and we havent had problems in the past. Our boat has speakers, but we're pretty chill. The other boats got nothing. |
As far as the geese go, I think you're referring to another Holiday Lake, we're Lake Holiday in the good old midwest. Thanks
Sorry to repeat a question, but is that study available, or was it specific to your lake. I dont exactly have an extra 100k lying around to have my own done.
|Keep us posted I live at Holiday Shores in the good old Midwest. I would not put something like this past our board. I would also recomed contacting the AWSA for help. www.usawaterski.org |
|I'll do my best. May take a few days/weeks. Dealing with our P.O.A. is a nightmare at best. |
|Greg, I think the angle you suggest is in the best interest of yourself and others like you. We too live in a private community and they can make your life hell if they want to. They can ban you from using the lake and they have even started making us all take a rules test annually. That's just a CYA manuever in case someone gets hurt. Enforcement is tough. They can ban bags and water weight, but if you have internal ballast, that's hard to qualify. Load up coolers with ice blocks and now what??? Good luck with whatever happens. Do keep us posted because it may be making it's way around sooner than we all think. Our issue now seems to be the speakers on towers. |
|Who has been out on the lake when there has been 4-5 boats boarding? You can still board with pretty good conditions. Now try boarding when there is 2-3 boats tubing. You can't do it. Somehow you need to find a way to measure the amount of wakes produced by 5 wakeboard boats vs 5 tubers. If they ban wakeboarders they have to ban everyone else as well. |
|Nice observation, Pat!|
|Greg, as I mentioned, I didn't mean any sarcasm or negativity to you regarding this issue. It just seems to me to be another one of those 'knee-jerk' reactions I've seen time and time again to address a problem brought forward by a 'couple' people. My main point in posting in this thread is that anything you guys mandate will be virtually un-enforceable, and highly discimiatory. As an example. Your security guy comes over and cites me in my older Moomba for running fat sacs. He however ignors the guy with the new SAN because he's running internal ballast. For crying out loud, the guy in the SAN could totally deny running any ballast at all (even sitting low in the water). What's the security guy gonna do, call him (a property owner who ultimately pays his salary) a liar, and cite him anyway. In the world we all live in today, all this type of enforcement will do is fuel potential lawsuits. It will most certainly fuel dissention on your lake and between your neighbors. I'd also argue that if 'I' live in your private community, I paid a pretty penny to be there, and any attempt at this point to limit rights in the use and enjoyment of the lake (i.e. the main focus of living in the community in the first place) might be litigation worthy as well. |
Sometimes 'private' communities are far more sensitive to liability / lawsuit related issues than public facilitites, so I'd think you'd have a real good case to leave well enough alone with regards to this issue.
|Mike, on our main lake, if they suspect that you are weighted, they will check your gauges, and make you hit the pump drain switch. They have checked for the Wedge, by feeling under the swim step. Please note that this is only in extreme cases. I have been out there marginally weighted, and the patrol did not bat an eyelash.|
|Obviously this is not a trivial issue getting more than 25 replies in 2 days. |
Greg, First off welcome to politics... Please tell us a little more about your lake, what are the board preferred activities? Is this a slalom lake? Are old people in paddleboats getting rocked?
I am a waterskier more than a wakeboarder but I enjoy both and would hate to be told that I could not do something that I enjoy on my home lake. On the delta we have big cruiser boats, fast offshore boats, houseboaters, fishermen, waterskiers, wakeboarders, and wakesurfers sharing the waterways. In the group there are always some careless thoughtless people that get under my skin from time to time but we have been lucky to avoid the banning of most activities in this public waterway. Once they start banning things it may not be long before all motor boats are banned so you may find the waterskiers or fishermen to be your allies in your quest.
You say there are only two "wakeboard boats" on the lake. You guys should keep a low profile until the issue is resolved. Make them see you as a nice reasonable guy wanting to follow thier rules or you are likely to lose the fight regardless of who is wrong or right.
See if you can talk with one of the board members one-on-one try to find the inside scoop before you fight, don't fuel the fire. I have to agree with Terry about the possibility of the audio system being their alterior motive. If grandma is having her grandkids over for brunch she probably does not want to hear a wakeboarders taste in music in her backyard.
Seems this guy might be able to help you:
Lake Holiday Ski Club
Here are the names of a couple of the board members: Marianne Perino, Robert Esser
Talk to the local realtors, they might not support the ban if they realize that they will be limiting the marketability of the lakefront homes.
(Message edited by mikeski on October 14, 2004)
|Jeff and others, |
I just have to comment on this whole thing. I have been reading this thread with some disbelief, not at what people are saying but that this crap is going on, regulating boats and such.
Are these patrol boats you are talking about sworn law officers, or are they just security guards? I just don't understand how they have the right to stop and/or board your boat. Law enforcement can stop you under Coast Guard regulations for a safety inspection for life jackets, fire extiguishers, etc, but what gives these guys the right? Even when a sheriff stops you, he cannot conduct a search without probable cause. A search means he cannot access anyting less than a man sized opening.
I just question the legality of all these rules. I know that in Florida where I live somebody can own all the land around a lake, but the state owns the submerged land up to the 100 yr flood mark. So if there was a private lake you wanted to ride on and you had enough cash you could helicopter the boat in and do whatever you wanted.
I hope all these regulations don't eventually make there way down here.
|Matt - Private lake, private community patrol. P.O.A. pays the lease on the water surface area. they give you a ticket, you pay a fine to the P.O.A. for breaking their rules. You don't pay the fine, they do not sticker your boat next year. Enough fines, the put a lein on your home. |
Yeah it sucks, but it is a necessary evil we have to put up with to be able to use the best water in the region (Canyon Lake Backwater).
Here are more interesting P.O.A. rules:
No motorcycles allowed on the community streets (even legally registered street bikes). My 8 year old can't even ride his electric scooter on the street with out risk of me getting a $150 fine.
All landscaping must be approved by the archetectural committee (have a friend who had to tear out a new concrete planter because it was 3" too high)
On the main lake, you must turn to the left to pick up a downed skier (how stupid/unsafe is that?)
The list goes on and on. The P.O.A. is pretty much a joke, takes itself way too seriously. The U.S. Constitution can be ammended, but C.C.& Rs are set in stone.
(Message edited by socalwakepunk on October 14, 2004)
|Wow, I had no idea. You must really like to ride because all that crap would make me give it up. |
Who does the P.O.A. (private owners assc???) lease the water from? I have never heard of that, but I have never lived outside FLA either.
Any of you guys get tired of all the rules and want a vaction, come ride on my lake. 2,800 plus acres, spring fed, nothing to worry about but the gators.
|The P.O.A. leases the water surface from the water district. |
Yeah, really like to ride.
The only upside is that it limits the # of boats (have to be a property owner to have access), no PWCs, and there are etiquite rules that make the backwater a really nice place to ride.
SoCal is really hurting for good places to ride. Not much water, most of the water here is off limits (water districts/environmentalists), and there is quite a drive to get to good, open water.
(Message edited by socalwakepunk on October 14, 2004)