|I have followed all the "my boat is the best" discussions on this board for a while. And, while everyone has their own views, the Sanger diehards continually make the claim that the Sanger is the better constructed boat because Sanger makes a limited number of boats per year and each one is handmade or built by hand. |
I have read a wakeworld article about how Skier's Choice builds boats and it sure sounds like they too are handmade or built by hand. I have read MC and SAN owners likewise indicate the same. So, can anyone (who really knows and is not just guessing) tell me what it is about the Sanger manufacturing that is actually different than the way Skier's Choice, Malibu, etc make theirs? I know there are various differences such as Skier's Choice does not use chopper spray guns to do the fibre glass (it is handlaid), and I am sure there are other differences, but what specifically allows Sanger to trumpet that their boats are built by hand versus the other manufacturers????
|i was looking pretty hard at sanger and cc from my local dealer who carried both. |
looking at most boats, they are pretty much built by hand.
the difference that i saw between the boats are:
quality of the construction (quality control)
quality of the components
quality/type of the motor
difference of construction method.
the sanger is unique in that it still uses wood in the construction. i see this as a plus if it is constructed well (sound and vibration). Sanger has been doing the wood for a long time and it works well for them.
the only drawback i see with the sanger (depends how you look at it) is the merc motor(1 year warranty)vs. the pcm/pcx/monsoon(3 year). it does help keep the cost down.
also, from what i have read, the unique quality that cc and the mc have very, very tight build tolerences and will still "feel" tight after 5-10 years ( like a bmw/mercedes vs. american car)
hope that helps,
|There's nothing substantially different; all inboard builders can make the "hand made" claim. Sanger just chooses to use it in their marketing. (Sanger does still use wood however, while the "Big 3" do not.) |
You'd be surprised at the limited number of boats all of these builders make on an annual basis. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the 2003 top seller only sold something like 600 boats.
(Message edited by swass on September 30, 2004)
|All these boats are handmade. None run down an automated line like cars with robots putting them together. Each company has their own engineering staff that has come up with the next level of performance(does not mean it is the best, just means it is a step up from last years model). it is what prompts people to buy up. |
Most have exclusive hull model shops and do some testing. I think where people consider Sanger as hand built is they probably produce the lowest annual qty of boats. But this is all relative. So you have 30 people hand building 100 boats or 90 people hand building 300. I think people see a ton of MC X series boats and think these are assembly line deals...My feeling this is all marketing and perception. The discovery channel had a documentary about boat and ship making a couple of months back.
People buy boats for alot of various reasons. Style, looks, graphics packages, status quo, "Have to have the best based on ratings from reviews so people will envy me" the list goes on. I say buy the boat you like and can afford. Boat envy can be quite expensive.......
|For what its worth here is my 2 cents.... |
Sanger is a FAMILY owned boat builder who has been building purpose oriented boats for over 50 years now.
I believe FAMILY is a key word because I believe they put that much more effort into what they do...I may be wrong, I just know that if my family was building them that is how we would see it.
I also believe through all my years of owning boats and as a car and street rod collector that they have one of the best Gel coats in the industry. This may not be as important to some but I rate it pretty high on the list of things I look for. Sanger takes the time to due all their graphics in the Gel Coat instead of putting a bunch of stickers on them. W/ the exception of the SANGER decal.
I am on my second Sanger and I live in the midwest where they are very difficult to get your hands on due to their low production numbers but I have made the effort twice now to have them transported from Calif.
And last but not least...I just like to have something a little different...Kind of like a street rod...because there arn't many in the midwest and the Gel work is so top notch, they turn a lot of heads...IMO.
OK, so maybe that was a dimes worth.....
|The top manufacturer of boats in 2003 was Malibu and the "hand-made" around 2600 boats worldwide. Mastercraft is a really close second and then it is CC, Tige and Skier's Choice all in 3-5. Their positions are constantly changing. |
None of the manufacturers are big enough to have the high-tech machines build their boat without the use of people. Fiberglass is an interesting medium to use becuase of it's physical properties vary with what is used and how it is applied. All of the top boat builders know that application by hand still yields the best product that they want to produce. It is also the cheapest procedure to make the boats in the way that they choose. Making 2500 boats a year is dramatically different than the millions of cars a year that are built.
The one thing to think about is metal and fiberglass are 2 different beasts. Boat builders choose to build the way the do because of economics.
Sanger does build a strong hull. And their use of wood makes for a quiet running boat. If you are worried about a longer warranty on the motor than you can purchase a Mercruiser Extended Warranty.
Drive the boats and see whose method of building a boat suits your needs best. Even though everybody touts their method as the best some are definitely better than others. And you will feel that difference in rough water or when you turn that boat.
|Where'd you get the 2600 number? Do you mean collectively, or just Malibu?|
|One of the most important parts of building a boat is how the motor is mounted to the stringer system and how thick the fiberglass is applied throughout the hull of the boat. If the motor is mounted to fiberglass alone it will have a tendency to be louder in the boat and the boat will have more vibration. The manufacturer should have a material or process that reduces sound and vibration. |
In Sanger they use the wood product and they mount the motor to fiberglass stringer encapsulated by wood. Thereby the wood takes the noise and vibration produced by the motor and dampens it. The persons in the boat notice and quieter and smoother boat. That is why you get a lot of people on this board enjoying their Sangers is because of the quality feel of the boat and it's cheaper price. I will say any of the boats you look at will last forever. Everyone is building a quality product. But the way they do build them does matter.
|Also, it is important that the upper and lower halves of the boat are bonded together with fiberglass intead of rivited or screwed. Many boat manufacturers do bond them but not all. |
|According to registrations in the US last year that is the # of boats Malibu produced. No manufacturer will give out the # they are making but boat registration numbers do not lie. Overall the industry will do almost 7,500 boats a year. This info can be acquired from the JD Power reports on the ski/wakeboat boat category. |
I am in the industry so I am privy to this kind of information. But it can be accessed by calling your local dealer and they should be able to tell you approximately the number of boats their manufacturer makes.
|The number of boat registrations do not correlate with the number of boats produced. Boats that move from one state to another have to be registered in the state that they move to, right? That doesn't mean they are new boats.|
|Well, according to NMMA, there were a total of 11,100 inboard ski/wakeboard boats sold in 2003, but it's unclear if these are new boats only. If so, my number was obviously way off. |
|Admittedly I am way off also. I have been told by my rep from one of the big 3 that industry wide about 7,500 are produced but that figure may be new boats only. So I guess we both suck but I suck more because I get paid to know this stuff. I need to find a new profession.|
|Sanger fan here- |
I toured the factory a couple of times and one thing that I really liked is that their workers don't rotate from place to place to fill in. They have a few guys doing the hull(stringers laminating), 1 guy doing graphics, 1 guy doing the gel work, two guys rigging, etc. The laminate guys don't do gel work and vice versa. If the gel guy gets backed up, the line pretty much stops until he's finished. Some may argue that it forces the gel guy to hurry and produce sub-standard gel work.. I have yet to see sub- standard work in a Sanger. They're an amazing family of boat builders.
Scott, Sangers are rivited/screwed to join the upper/lower, but it's also bonded on top of that.
Dario, you said: "In Sanger they use the wood product and they mount the motor to fiberglass stringer encapsulated by wood."
You mean wood stringer ecapsulated by glass.
Also, sans the motors, gauges, etc. everything is made a fitted in the factory. Watching the stringer guys cut and fit stringers is pretty impressive. Ever try to get a piece of wood to fit perfectly flat to a multi-angled surface running the length of a boat? Doesn't sound like too big of a deal, but it is. They have jigs that guide them but the final fitting has to be done by hand.
I think Sanger might do more by hand than most other boat builders, but I don't think being hand built is unique to Sanger.
|I moved my boat from one state to another and did not register it because I am on a private lake. I think that sort of thing would almost certainly skew the numbers. I am sure I am not the only one beating the system. |
|Yes what Eric said, |
If a person buys a new boat and runs it on a private lake and never registers it then it would not show up on the "system" as a boat built. right? Probably only a low percentage of boats do this though.
|In Sanger I thought that there was one guy assigned to be the "manager" of each boat. He was personally responsible for quality control on that one unit only, is this correct?|
|So, if that one guy has a bad day or week or has a bone to pick with Sanger, does that mean your boat will be bad? I don't agree with quality in the hands of one person means better quality. Checks and balances, throughout society came about for a reason.|
|Holy Cow! I do apologize about my mistake on the "In Sanger they use the wood product and they mount the motor to fiberglass stringer encapsulated by wood." |
You mean wood stringer ecapsulated by glass."
I do appreciate the correction. You are correct that the numbers will be skewed by the individuals who do not end up registering their boats. That is why I think a truer # is to hear from a rep of a company because they do know how many boats their manufacturer makes. But then you have to trust that person and it is such a competitive industry that sometimes you may not hear the whole truth. Bummer.
Sangers go through a series of checks before they leave the facility.
Checked & Balanced.
|hey barry. what's shaking? |
I did ride with a pro the other day. I will not mention his name out of respect for his opinion. He has ridden behind all the boats out there and gave me his low down. He states that he likes the malibu and the san the best but they are very different wakes. He then liked the sanger. He did not like centruion, calabria, or mb as he said the spray control chines cut into the wake causing it to crumble too much.
|Since you changed jobs I no longer have your phone number..Otherwise, you'd know what was shaking with me. |
Shoot me an e-mail or something.
|I normally don't make post on your website but this one sparked my interest! I think this board is a very helpfull tool for a manufacture to listen to and take as much input as possible. As for why Sanger Boats statement of Hand Made quality being different than other boat companies. Let me explain some of the differences without rambling on for days. Sanger has a thing about controling the manufacturing process as best as they can. We produce inhouse, most of the componients that we put into the boat. (hand rails, motor mounts, seat bases, vent plates, ski tows, pylons, pylon mounts and so on. We use only sheet glass in the lamination process to control and meter more precisely this process. We use non rotting wood to give more stucural rigidity and noise dampening to the boat. Using wood is a very time consuming process and thus the reason most of our competitors have ceased using this process. The man hours nessesary to laminate a hull with wood is far more than to do it with all glass, which is why it becomes more profitable and inables a manufacture to produce more units with the same manpower. THIS WOOD CAN NOT ROT!!! If you ever have seen our manufacturing plant and the way we do things, you would get the idea that this is definitely a hand made custom boat. I hope this helps and I appreciate the unput we get from all of you out there, we really do listen. |
|like always...you ar ethe man scott. |
thanks for the incite.
all I can say is that i ride with our sanger and my buddies malibu. Both boats are very nice but he even comments how it is such a pleasure just to drive the sanger.
wakes are both huge but very different in shape.
Thanks for your manufacturing input. My wife and I looked at and test drove quite a few boats prior to our purchase. Although they were all nice the Sanger had the best driveability and water manners than the others. My wife really enjoys driving the boat. She actually fights with me for the seat which is saying a lot since most prefer to be passengers....
How does one set up a tour? I would enjoy coming buy. I drive through Sanger frequently. I am in the Fresno area.
|Now that we have Scott on the board I was wondering if he would offer up some insight on boat #'s that he knows of. I would like to know how many boats Sanger produces a year. I respect your confidentiality if you do not want to share but it is of interest to me. I really want smaller boat builders to make $$ and enjoy what they do but I am interested in the quantity of boats manufactured each year. |
Also, just wondering if Scott still holds the speed record for barefooting or not. I will expect and answer on this question. Thanks in advance.
Does Sanger shoot strand or shreds from a chopper gun or do you cloth that is hand rolled with resin on both sides. Woven fabric is what I thought made them stronger over the wood?
You might want to reread Scotts post he answered your question
|No CHOP glass in a Sanger, all hand laid fiberglass. I have worked on boats for the last ten years. I have ridden in MasterCraft, Malibu and all the others. Then one day I was in CA, I saw a Sanger.... Now I am A Sanger dealer. Yes they are that good. And Yes Scott does hold the Barefooting speed record. |
|here is my 2 cents |
I have a sanger 2003 V210 with a 350 mercruiser. The motor was broken in the right way. I have about 450 hours on the motor and have it serviced about every 150 hours. The motor now burns about 1 qt of oil every 16 hours this is not right. The dealer I bought the boat from called mercruiser and they told my dealer this is normal. I think that sucks!! When I buy boat #2 it will not be a SANGER as long as thay keep using mercruiser motors. With all the R&D that mercruiser dose in racing you would think they could design their motors better so they don't burn oil. I guess when you get that big they dont care that much about their customers and their products that much. That is too bad because Sanger is a great boat maker it's too bad they use a substandard motors in their boats. As for my boat I think SANGER is the best built boat on the market!!!!
IIRC Mercruiser does not "build" the motors. They order long block with specifics from GM. They add what makes it Mercruiser. Your only other option is Indmar and that too is GM with their special specs.
Leak down your motor and see if you have a problem. Not sure what oil you are using but might want to look into that as well especially if it is 5w. I do not think 450 hours is a lot to warrant oil consumption. How do your plugs look. Are they oil crusted? Are you checking your PCV valve? When did you start to notice the oil consumption?
Sorry to hear of your issue. Engines are engines, they are mechanical. Switching boat makers will not fix your problem, you could spend $80K on a MC and have the same problem arise. I think the only advantage in regards to Indmar is the warranty. Of course trying to get a boat dealer to come out to confirm oil consumption would be tough no matter who made it. Most will do a diagnostic at the service center and if nothing surfaced they would send you on your way.
I have the same year/model boat as you. I do not have nearly the hours however. I switched to synthetic oil at 10 hrs.
|I started to notice about 100 hours ago. On the other things I will ask the dealer what they found. Thay are great guys at the dealership they will do what they can for you.|
|I had an early 90's DXII w/ a pcm 351 Ford. I'm wondering if Sanger could improve their already great boats by offering them w/ the pcm or indmar. I love Sangers. My dad still has a 72 flatbotton bubbledeck v drive that is so fast it scares the s#*t out of me. Great boats!|
|If PCM was an option when i bought the V210 I would have gone with it.|
|Sanger's motto is not so much "built by hand" (which it is mostly by ONE person, no assembly line), as it is "Built for Life".|
|To sum up. All boats are at least to some extent, "built by hand". They all are built slightly differently. However, Sanger uses wood whereas most others do not. I do not believe the Sanger will last longer (i.e., "Built for Life"), since their warranties are no better than many other boats and the feedback on their engine of choice seems to be poor. My intent was to flesh out whether in fact, Sangers were built significantly differently. Other than using wood, they do not seem to be. My belief, based on all the feedback is that that urban legend is debunked!! Now, I am not saying a Sanger is not a great boat. However, I sincerely doubt it is much different from the other manufacturers as far as building process and quality. |
I would also urge Scott Pellaton to take a tour of Skier's Choice, Malibu, Mastercraft and CorrectCraft and then tell me Sanger is significantly more "custom made" than the other manufacturers. My understanding from the Wakeworld article on Skier's Choice is EVERY boat is custom configured and made.
(Message edited by wakeshoe on October 03, 2004)
(Message edited by wakeshoe on October 03, 2004)
|It's too bad for all boat owners that ford discontinued production of the small block Windsor motors a few years back. I am sure PCM and Indmar would still offer them. I truely believe the competetion would make Mercruiser have to perform better on warranty issues. The maunfactures ould then differentiate from one another like they used to. I currently have a 96 Sanger DLX with a Mercruiser. My previous boat was an 88 Sanger with PCM 351 Ford and my next boat will be a Sanger V215 or V230 in the next year or so. Having had many early inboard boats over the years I would far perfer the Ford over the GM. If you ask old school slalom skis they will tell you the Ford had more torque out of the hole and they lasted forever as evidenced by the number of old Natiques out there. Not staring a Chevy vs Ford debate here, Just wishing we still had more choices to force the mfgs to better improve both performance and service. Right now Mercruiser has all the market share and no incentive to work harder IMO.|
|If I had to drive a boat with a ford engine in it I would go back to outboards!!!|
|I had the luxury of a Sanger Tour, and had a V210. These boats are great. Like Scott was saying, I saw them fabricating all the little pieces. It was the little attention to details that really sold me. The customer support was first rate,I have dealt with Scott on a few occasion's and had my small issues resolved quickly. Customer service is key for me. I liked the fact that the factory was so close to me unlike all the other manufacture's. |
If I wasn't leaving Cali I would have another V210 no question. There is NO perfect boat. To err is human. Every one has an opinion, and they are like everyone has one!
|Wakeshoe I am going to disagree. I've owned 2 Sangers and now a MC. Nobody builds them like Sanger. I've yet to hear of an issue w/gelcoat, workmanship,finish work, etc on a Sanger. I've heard of gel cracks, windows that fail to fit properly, and carpet/interior issues with other boat companys. Sure when you produce alot of boats you will end up with more total defects. I'm not bashing other boat companies because I think all the big guys make nice stuff that will last a very long time if you service the mechanicals properly. I think Sanger's heritage of strapping 700 hp big blocks into 18 ft flatbottoms, and making sure everything stays together, was an advantage in building ski boats which also undergo unique stresses. Check out Scott Pellaton's post. Sanger does indeed build them differently. Writing this makes me wish I still had my old Mandella flatbottom! Not really because my wife and kids would never go in that thing. Cheers to all who build toys for the water!|
|Sangers are built by hand, the still use full length wood stringers and hand woven fiberglass in the hulls. If you disagree, take a roller with my boat and an all fiberglass boat and talk to me about ride quality. |
I love sangers, have an 04 V210 might consider sale to get the V230 sanger. My belly is getting huge, i guess i love coors light even more
You're missing the point. I am not saying Sangers aren't built differently. In fact, I clearly stated they are the only ones I know of that use wood. However, I do not believe that they can solely make the claim that their boats are handmade. I see none of the manufacturers mass producing their boats - they are all handmade. Do they all tend to do some things differently - YES. Do they use some different components while using some common components - YES. But, I contend that ALL the typically discussed wakeboard boats can claim to be "handmade" or "built by hand", not just Sanger. So, when making a case that the Sanger is a very high quality boat (which I absolutely agree with), make the case on their component choice, their use of wood, etc., but please cut the crap about handmade. For those of you that have taken the "tour" of the Sanger manufacturing facility, have any of you bothered to tour the other boat manufacturer's facilities? I contend you might see very similar "built by hand" work being done.
(Message edited by wakeshoe on October 05, 2004)
|built by hand claim has to do with how the hull is popped from the mold, how the stringers are layminated in the hull and the fiberglass is hand woven into the boat. |
most manufs use chopper guns to spray into the boats and shoot foam through the fiberglass stringers.
if you do not like sangers, than dont buy one. But that is what i contend made by hand statement contends to.
ALL wakeboats are built with human hands, ie rigging, interior, hull etcs. But is it my 2pesos that believes that the hull lay up by hand is what BUILT BY HAND MEANS...because without a hull, you would just have floating seats in the water.
|this thread is stupid. |
I dig Sanger boats and I don't even bag on their wood. Yet, this "built by hand" crap is silly.
BTW, an FYI, Sanger's wood warranty is transferable for TWO years -- Tige's wood warranty was transferable for TEN years.
|I came across the boat numbers out of one of the Marine Industry newsletters at a dealership the other day. |
Malibu and Master Craft at around 3,000 per year each
Correct Craft- 1,600
Skiers Choice- 1,500
Wood is not a bad material for boats. $200k go fast boats use wood stringers. It has more flex, which is necessary going across rough water at 80 mph.
|I only am concerned about wood being used to build the top deck items. My MB Sport was suppost to be a fiberglass boat until I started putting speakers in it and the gunwales were wood and so on and so forth. Makes for a rotten good time....|
|Other boat manufacturers use an assembly line. Sanger does not. One person builds the boat after it comes out of the mold from begining to end. (Yes he will get help from time to time) They use wood, it's more expensive to use, but it will not rot and it gives the boat a smoother, quieter ride. Since 1994 they have used wood that is treated with... let's just say it's a mold poison. It does not rot. |
Sanger "Built for Life!"
|Sorry guys, I have been out of town and haven't checked in for a while. Dario, We have built 400 +/- boats for the last 13years. This year we are adding 2 boats a week by building the V210 as a limited option boat and will do about 500. Rick, We only use sheet glass in the lamination of our hulls, decks, and floors. We do use a chop gun for our seat bases and non strucual parts. Jeff, I will be happy to see about a tour if you email me. WakeShoe, I have been in many other boat factories. I would love to show you the difference in the way we build a boat. Email me anytime and I will be happy to bring you through.|