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WakeWorld Discussion Board » >> Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles Archive » Archive through January 14, 2005 » MTX 9500 VS JL W7 « Previous Next »
By Grant West (whitechocolate) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 8:49 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I have been having some trouble with my W-7's. It seems as if I push them for long periods 3-4 hrs they get real hot and stop working. I have blown 2 of them up so far. The solution would be to turn down the gains and turn down the Bass and Im sure the subs would stay cool and this wouldnt be a problem. BUT IM SORRY THATS NOT HOW WHITE CHOCOLATE ROLLS. LOL when you are used to rocking it at level 10 level 9 or 8 is Just "UN-ACCEPTABLE"

The MTX subs have been peeking my curiousity with there touted durability over a W-7. The people at the stereo shops IMO have no Idea. So I decided to get A MTX 9500 and do the Pepsi challange against my current W-7

The MTX looks beefier with way more cooling vents ect and a larger magnet. But the W7 IMO looks better. The MTX specs show the MTX has way more excursion and V-max and will handle more power.

I ran 1200 watts at 4 Ohm s to the MTX 9500 the settings on the Orion XTR-2400 amp were set for a W-7 and not adjusted for the 9500, (I dindt want to mess with anything till I was sure the Sub was worth it) the MTX 9500 was pushing 99.9 DB's

The W-7 had 1600 watts at 3 Ohms from my other Orion XTR 2400 I placed both subs in the boat and took turns un plugging them and running them together. The W7 was pushing 101.1 DB's

I used my high quality stereo testing CD. Using Petey Pablos "FREEK A LEEK" track to bump the hell out of the sub's. LOL

this is what I found with out any adjustments the MTX 9500 sounds and hits good enough to make me swith. There is no sub that I have found that will out bass a W-7 especially when it comes to low rolling bass the kind I like. The W7 does sound better and for SQ there is no beating it. But I think I will be able to tune it so that it sound as good as a W7. So Im giving up some SQ for longevity and prolonged pounding, I hope. Now if these 9500 start blowing then I really screwed myself, I have a good feeling they will hold up better, from all the people I have talked with no on has a problem with them.

Here are some Photo's








 
By Grant West (whitechocolate) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 8:51 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post







 
By A. P. (bigdad) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 9:52 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
wow. what are u going to do with the W7s?
 
By Phaeton (phaeton) on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 10:41 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
My installer liked the W6's much better than the W7's. There for that is why we went with them. haha. Not a single amp, sub, alt, and battery problem in two years. The deck on the other hand is a different issue.
 
By Grant West (whitechocolate) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 8:51 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Travis, I know your not tooting your own horn, But Im sure your boat doest sound like my'n. I know what W6's sound like. I tryed them out. They are nice but there not even close to what we are talking about. Its easy to have a system that dosent blow up. DONT play it loud. Now im sure you think think you turn your's up plenty but I can bet its no where near the levels that we rock it at. lets hook up your W6's to my amps and we will all watch the smoke rise. LOL

The problems that I have been having are on the borderline of line of user speaker abuse. Thats why Im not dis-satisfied with W7's. I know the fix.(turn things down) but Im not looking to go backwards. This test was to see if there was a sub out there that sounded as good as a W7 and can take abuse. The MTX sounds close enough for me to make a jump, with the thought that it will last longer under the conditions I throw at it.

A.P What am I going to do with my W-7's. I will sell my W-7's and boxes to some one with a Nautique it should be a nice upgrade for some one.

 
By Tom Barnard (tlb) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 9:08 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I've got a W6, I like it but I know a W7 hits alot harder. I've got a 500/1 pushing it and I think it's maxed.
Grant, I might be interested in one of your w7's.

 
By Phaeton (phaeton) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 9:31 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Grant you know me well enough to know that I was not tooting my horn. My installer is just not a huge fan of the W-7's. At least in my application. When we designed my system I could use anything I wanted as long as it was a JL Audio product. I was set on W-7's he was against it. I went with his suggestion.

However I will disagree with you. Talk to anyone who has heard my system and they will confirm how LOUD, CLEAR and how HARD it hits. With five subs and twelve speakers it should be. I've already cracked the glove box lid. We tuned the system to play it at one to two clicks under full volume on the deck. You know the more you drink the louder you turn it up. This leaves a saftey zone to protect the speakers. Now does it hit as hard as yours. I don't know. What I do know is I can play it at full volume all day long without a single issue. We seem to do this eveytime were out.

 
By 882001 (882001) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 9:32 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
what about pro audio speakers? maybe a 15" electrovoice? just a thought. concerts go for hours and you could hear slipknot five miles away{outdoor concert}.
 
By Grant West (whitechocolate) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 10:33 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Travis: Im just saying everyone's impression of how hard some ones system is hittig and how loud they rock it is subject to what you have heard and what your used to.

I am a installer. I have hiched lots of systems up, I have a bad habbit of looking at ones equipment and sizeing it up in my head of how good and how loud it sounds. Also what kind of music you listen to can make or break your system. Example "Metalica" is not going to break your system like "Little John" would. Example your running 2 W6's to one 1000-1 that's 500 watts to each one right? Im running 1600 watts to one 12. Now times that by 2. Welcome to my system and times that by 3 and you have Harrolds system. Trust me we are professional when it comes to rocking it LOL. Ill just take your word that your system bumps till I hear it in person.

As far as you cracking you glove box thats what you get for not buying a Nautique. LOL

P.S I can make you a Carbon Fiber glovebox with a TV in it for $800 LOL


 
By Phaeton (phaeton) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 12:03 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Grant that's funny stuff.

You are correct that I am running 500 watts to each W6 but they are designed for that wattage.

Being an installer then you would know that running 1600 watts to a 12w7 would put it into the danger zone. JL Audio states " We do not recommend operating woofers at this level of power. In this zone , there is a very high probability that the driver will fail due to excessive heat and/or mechanical stress." Sounds like what you are experiencing.

I do agree that the type of music one listens to can contribute to the desturction. I am not a big fan of Rap. Linkin Park get's me going though.

I have heard all the hype that you have about other systems and agree it is subject to what one is use to. Without a doubt I'm sure yours and Harolds systems ROCK.

 
By Grant West (whitechocolate) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 12:36 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Travis: We are on the same page for sure, I know that running 1600 watts to the W7 puts it in the black (Danger ZONE) thats why Im not crying foul. I wanted to find a sub that will run in the danger zone and like it.
I started out running JL 1000-1's to each of my W7's and IMO the 12 W7's needed more power. When we threw 1600 watts at them, It was a Whole diffrent story the W7 woke up and hit and sounded like nothing I have ever heard. Take in mind I have been running this Bass set up for almost 3 years now and the problems are a recent thing. I still think its a winning combo you just have to be carefull with your gains and dont go overboard. I know my buddy Tom Biggs has had the same sort of porblem's with his W7's "meltdown" due to rocking it to hard LOL. His soultion turn down the gain's and bass.
I also wanted to find a alternative to the W7 the W7 is like 4-5 years old now and we all know that Most car audio gets better each year, So I was eager to try somthing new.

I think for now Ill throw the W7's back in and keep using my boat and in the meantime Ill start building all new boxes to house the new 9500's

FYI this 9500 is a single 4 Ohm so it see's 1200 watts at 4 Ohms. We are going to get a dule 4 Ohm that will drop down to 2 Ohms so it will see 2400 watts at 2 Ohms. Wait for the results on that this could be a whole new ball game.


 
By Phaeton (phaeton) on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 1:45 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Keep us posted of your results.
 
By Grant West (whitechocolate) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 7:42 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
We tested the Duel 4 Ohm woofer last night in Harolds boat. Hooking up both voice coils we were able to drop the load on the woofer to 2 Ohms. Thus making the Amp push 2400 watts.

First we tested the single 4 Ohm woofer running in 1200 watts.

hear are the results

12 W-7 running 3 Ohms @ 1200 watts 106.5 DB
MTX 9500 running in 4 Ohms @ 1200 watts 103.1 DB
MTX 9500 running in 2 Ohms @ 2400 watts 104.6 DB (and at this DB the 9500 sub was starting to fail/distort)

IMO Im done with the 9500's They are close but no cigar. The 9500 was neither louder or cleaner. If it was one or the other I could see making a swith but with it coming in 2nd in both tests I cant see using it. Bummer I was hoping this sub would work out.

 
By Joe (joe_788) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 8:24 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
What kind of music makes the 9500 (or W7) perform the best?

Right now I'm running a single $89.99 Xplod 10" in a sealed enclosure, and it sounds like...well, a $89.99 woofer.

I'm thinking of upgrading to the 9500 (10 inch) and a new amp, but I really don't listen to any rap music at all, the majority is faster punk rock. Is this woofer the right choice? I don't want to hear the thing trying to keep up and flopping all over (like my Sony).


 
By Geoff Maus (bluemalibu) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 8:38 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Grant,

You made this a great thread for several reasons:
The pursuit of killer tunes
Addressing related subjects and questions without getting off track.
Good solid problem solving technique.
The problem solving is what impressed me the most.
You started with a perceived problem.
You proposed a product that might be a solution.
You did a lot of comparison / contrast between the products.
You did some baseline testing.
You did head to head testing of the products using good controls
-using a stereo testing CD and Db meter.
You recorded the results.
You posted the results.
Lastly, you made a decision based on your results.

Thank you for sharing all your hard work.

Geoff


 
By Fluid Concepts (jlembas) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 9:06 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Grant,

Without knowing what amplifiers you are running or what electrical system your two test boats have, I have a couple of questions/observations. It seems that whenever you approach the 2400 watt stage (with a single woofer or two), you seem to run into problems. At the 1200 watt stage everything seems O.K. My point is this, at 2400 watts your electical system needs to be delivering somewhere in the neighboorhood of 160 amps at 14.4 V. That is some serious current. How do you supply that current? Being that we are going to build a fancy show boat this winter, I would like to know what you are doing on the power side of things. Secondly, if you don't have that kind of power in the boat, have you considered the fact that the amplifier/amplifiers are starving for power and consequently going into distortion?? Thus causing your woofer distortion/overheating problems. I have had problems with this in the past so I thought I would try and help. Let us know if you find a solution.

Jerry Lembas
www.fluidconcepts.net
Fluid Concepts

 
By Jayson Peavy (jayson) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 9:09 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Grant....If your looking for something to hit as low as your W7 and handle the power. Look at the ID MAX.
 
By Duane (nvsairwarrior) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 9:21 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Grant,
I for one really appreciate your testing...especially since we can all reap the benefits from your results.
After seeing the recommendation on the ID MAX (I think I know how you feel about that one) can you offer any insight on other subs that you have experience with?
Some of us (mabybe most of us) may not be considering putting 2K+ watts in subs but the test results may prove invaluable non the less.

 
By David P (evil_e) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 10:17 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Grant, have you heard or tried the Kicker SoloX? Just to be clear, I'm not talking about the Solobaric that you see in many of the kicker systems, but the SoloX that's sort of Kickers answer for the W7. I haven't heard one but on paper it sounds like it can take the hits. I'd be interested to see your W7 vs 9500 test with a SoloX thrown in there to see how it measures up. The SoloX also comes in an 18" although I don't see too many people fitting an 18" sub into a wakeboard boat. Personally, I've got a W7 and I love it, although I'm not running quite as much juice to it as it sounds like you are so I haven't had any issues with it overheating like you have...
 
By BigD (bigd) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 11:40 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Dude, Crank it to 11!
 
By Grant West (whitechocolate) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 12:09 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
For all of you that are using this information to better your systems. I say your welcome. I have got lots of great information here and like to share the weath what comes around goes around.

Im not trying to slam any woofer or promote any one product, I can buy any woofer I want. Im not stuck on one brand, So for me If it #1 sounds better #2 hits harder #3 uses less power. Then Im on it. My testing is not super accurate It is by no means "Lab quality measurements" like you would see in a car audio mag but its alot better then lets say "bubba and his friends agreeing over a budwiser this is better than that" The digital DB meter Im using ony confirms what you can hear with your ear. The W7 in all of my tests has been better.

Jerry: We used Harolds boat for this last test. We are using Orion XTR pro 2400 amps. They are 1200 watts in 4 ohm's and 2400 watts in 2 Ohm's. The amp is a regulated power supply and has a THD of 0.003%
Harold has 9 optima blue top batterys in his SAN. It does not have a problem holding 13.5-13.8 volts while testing. So lack of power is not a issue. I have a digital amp meter as well. When his system hits a heavy bass note it would draw like 160-180 amps per bass amp. He has 3 Orion XTR 2400's so yes we are drawing some serious amp's

All the wire in his system is 0 AGW to the fused distrubution and 2 AGW to all the amps, Trust me its wired for over kill he spent over $1,600 in wire and distrubution alone.

Jason: I have seen and heard the ID-MAX sub's yes they are nice but not a serious contender for us.

Paul: Yes I have seen this 5000 watt Solo X. wholesale on that sub is $1400, I would hate to think what that thing goes for retail so it better be good. Yes that would be another good sub to test, That is if you have a 5000 watt amp. & the last time I checked a 4000 watt "Zapco 4wk" or 6000 watt "JBL/crown jewl" amp went for over $6000. So if you have say $9000 laying around and want to do some testing drop me a line. LOL



(Message edited by whitechocolate on September 20, 2004)

 
By tdc_worm (tdc_worm) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 12:55 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
on the forums at sounddomain.com a lot of people recommend the Reasonant Engineering XXX sub for both SQ and SPL over the W7. the T/S parameters are very similar (if i recall correctly). Resonant Engineerings website is respl.com
 
By David P (evil_e) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 1:46 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I'm gonna have to say no on fronting the cash or supplies for that test. But in doing some checking I did see a new 18" SoloX (which is 10,000 watts peak, 5000 RMS) on Ebay with a buy it now price of $655, of course there's no warranty if you get it on Ebay and again there's the logistics of fitting an 18" sub on a wakeboard boat. But yeah, powering that monster would be horrifyingly expensive.
 
By Fluid Concepts (jlembas) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 2:52 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
9 Optima's .......Uh O.K.

I was thinking more like 10 batteries at least, but if you want to half-ass it, that's alright with me. I guess I won't try to sell you any fat sacks.

Grant, I think we may have had this conversation before, but what are you using as far as an alternator?

Oh yeah, back to your problem with destroying woofers.....Back in the day I used to be sponsored by Orion and a few other companies for sound comps/car shows and I had nothing but trouble with Orions. When they get hot they do very strange things.

Jerry Lembas
Fluid Concepts
www.fluidconcepts.net

 
By Grant West (whitechocolate) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 4:26 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
David LOL, Hey FYI that Solo X your talking about, The 12 inc needs a box that is 3 Qubic feet for a sealed box, The ported box need a box 6 qubic feet, You better have a X-80 if you want to run one of these LOL

Jerry:

when the boat is running all 10 batterys are in use so we are good there. We are both running 160Amp HO Marine alternators.

The Orion amp's we are running dont seem to heet up. I can put my hand on any of the Bass amps when the system is running full blast for some time they are luke warm. The PPI amps we use for the highs get hot. Good thing they have a built in fan or im shure they would melt down.

I know what your saying what was once a P.O.S company or amp/speaker is now good. IMO car audio and marine audio are they same but very diffrent. Example If you were to take this sytem and install it in a car and run it I bet you couldnt even sit in the car it woud be so loud.
The same is true for all the woofer testing we have been doing I bet that 9500 sounds great in a car.

 
By Grant West (whitechocolate) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 4:31 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
BTW this is not the first woffer I have tested, in this manner, I also did the Pepsi chalange with the "12 inc Orion H2, Its a beautiful sub. At the time everyone said it was the W7 killer, I built a box for it and tested it. That thing failed big time.
 
By jude (macdaddy) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 5:22 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
OK grant I am no system guru...just a gay contractor but you always say the W7's get super hot check out this setup from SAS it works with there subs. Can we do anything like it to the W7'S http://www.sasbazooka.com/productAutoAccessoriesCHIL.asp?id=232


p.s thanks for the idea luke!!

 
By Grant West (whitechocolate) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 7:16 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
"INTRESTING"
 
By Fluid Concepts (jlembas) on Monday, September 20, 2004 - 7:47 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
160 Amp alternator.....nice.

Just re-read my post. The 9 batteries comment was meant as a joke. That is plenty. You guys don't mess around. I like that.

Jerry Lembas
Fluid Concepts
www.fluidconcepts.net

 
By Grant West (whitechocolate) on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 7:43 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Jerry: I know you were just kidding. Its cool.
 
By Texas (tabiggs) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 12:32 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Jude,
We melted our first 13 W7 last year so our installer did exactly that, INSTALLED Three 10,000 RPM HP Fans in 3 ported boxes that housed #3 JL 13W7's and I cant say it helped. They get extremely hot and if you are in rough water too, the high heat in the voice coils also becomes subject for failure, more opportunity to freeze the sub..

The magnet just fell off this W7 we melted about 1 month ago :-)
melted1
melted2

 
By Harold (wikd281) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 1:14 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Liquid cooling I think is the answer. Grant is on the right track. We went to dinner and were talking about it a couple days ago. It has been done before. Just like the boat is cooled with lake water> so can you're subwoofers. Just need a water pump and some lines to circulate the water. Only question is how to plumb in the water to the magnet for cooling? Would be a trick setup tho!
 
By jude (macdaddy) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 4:37 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
harold we need to get ahold of one of those SAS subs and see how it works..grant and i were talking about a coil that would wrap around the magnet a like 5 times!!!speaking of W7's whats up with #4 in your boat??
 
By Luke (lukeduke95) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 6:31 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Liquid cooling-

If you look at the pic of the magnet, it is too thick to simply wrap it with copper tubing to get it to cool. It may help a little, but it looks like that thing is like 6-8 inches in diameter.

You could build a sub box into a 12v cooler though.

What about creating a "bladder" that sealed around the base of the speaker and had a fill side and empty. Then it would just circulate cool water through and the driect contact may be the answer to the cooling.

 
By Luke (lukeduke95) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 6:42 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
here is a pic for you un-imaginative types!



image/bmp
Speaker bag.bmp (63.0 k)


NOW, where did I leave my elmers paste.

(Message edited by lukeduke95 on September 22, 2004)

 
By Grant West (whitechocolate) on Wednesday, September 22, 2004 - 7:26 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I think most of the heat in a subwoofer comes from the voice coil. Cooling the magnet IMO would be treating the symptom and not treating the cause. If I were to run some sort of cooling system it would wrap around where the magnet meets the basket around the center of the voice coil. Running the sub in potential clipping mode causes more heat than anything else, I think this could be #1 cause of my problem's
 
By Harold (wikd281) on Friday, September 24, 2004 - 7:55 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
#4 sub will probably not happen. I am plenty happy with setup right now. I would like to re-do that 3rd sub under the pass. seat. Some plexi glass and some neon might be nice.
Probably could squeeze in 2 W7's under the passenger seat facing the same way as the other 2? That might be a thought? haha.....we'll see.

 
By Mike (mikeski) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 8:27 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Grant,

Are these rebuildable? It may be a long shot but I used to use Dynaudio 12" woofers in an old car stereo. They used a hexagonal shaped wire for the voice coil resulting in a higher current carrying capacity. You might be able to carry more current to produce equal electro-motive force with less heat if this type of wire were used. Another option is to use a stronger magnetic material like Neodymium again resulting in larger EMF with lower current. Do you know of any woofers using the neo magnet?

Long shots...
Mike

 
By Duane (nvsairwarrior) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 9:39 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Neodymium magnets: I've not experienced it myself but I have read that although a good choice in terms of strength per weight, Neodymium is suceptible to heat that results in a permenant loss of some strength. If this is true, I would think in an application such as a Sub Woofer of the magnitude we are talking about it would make for a poor choice of magnet material.
 
By mike singer (clubmyke) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 9:50 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
i agree with jayson....

next time around, might suggest the image dynamic id max......

 
By Grant West (whitechocolate) on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 10:11 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Mike the subs are rebuildable? Send them back to JL along with $250 and you will get a new sub! LOL

The subs I have blown up I have gotten them replaced under a replacment deal.

JL offers a 1 year warranty (free) you have to pay shipping one way $50 and it takes about 3-4 weeks to get your sub back. After the year is up you pay a flat rate of $250 to get the sub repaired from JL.

As far as using a ID max, I dont think a ID max is even in the same ballpark as a W7.

 
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