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WakeWorld Discussion Board » >> Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles Archive » Archive through April 01, 2004 » Unusual Boating accessorie « Previous Next »
By Matt Anderson (xaggie) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 12:28 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Not to get anyone all upset here but does anyone carry a firearm aboard their boat. Before I get killed here I know it's not the ocean or anything but I just got my CCW here in Texas and wondered if anyone else had some exp. in this area. Matt
 
By Millerman (millerman) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 12:40 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
My suggestion would be not to for a few reasons.

First would be if people on the boat are drinking, they don't always think clearly. Alcohol or other similars due not mix well with weapons.

Secondly, anytime you are in any type of conflict, a gun is involved because you brought one. Not necessarily that you would be holding it, but the worry if it got into the wrong hands.

Thirdly, if you go into a harbor, store, etc, on the water, you have to do something with it.

Unless you boat in a bad area, sometimes the Cal Delta could qualify :-), it's not worth the worry or headache.

Just my two cents.
Millerman

 
By Levi Cress (levi) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 12:43 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
You gotta watch out for those Pirates!

Seriously though....I don't think it would be a bad idea...especially if you're on a long boating/camping trip. You can run into some crazy people out there sometimes...no need to be paranoid, but take it from the boy scouts...be prepared.

Plus, after posting this...no one will mess with you now! :-) or w/ me either.... I still need to at least get some picks of a couple shotguns up in the board racks!! I am moving back to Idaho in a week! I just had a thought..what about a clay pigeon thrower on the swim platform of your boat...you could take a shoot'n break between sets. A new meaning to taking a "pull" behind the boat! ha ha

 
By swass (swass) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 1:01 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I'd never do it, but to each his own, I guess. Is a CCW some sort of concealed weapons permit? Do you want to bring it with you just because you can?

As a passenger, I'd want to know there's a weapon on board, especially if I have my kid(s) with me. I would not be too happy with you if my son stumbled upon your gun while he's rootin' around for his goggles.

(Message edited by swass on March 09, 2004)

 
By Matt Anderson (xaggie) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 1:04 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Levi you have no idea how correct you are. When I went and messed around with the A&M ski team a few years ago we sat in the middle of the lake (ski lake) on the back of their CC and shot clay pigeons thrown from the shore. Again more like levi said on a camping trip of sorts not just a day trip to the lake.
 
By Karl De Looff (boarditup) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 1:08 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
If you are pulled over by the Coast Guard you must declare your weapon immediately.

It is really difficult to accurately hit your target on a rolling and pitching boat. It takes a lot of training and practice.

If you miss, your projectile will sometimes skip on the water and continue downrange. You are responsible for all impact your projectile makes.

A boat is an inhospitable place for a firearm. We cleaned our guns every day to avoid corrosion. SS does not preclude corrosion becuase your rounds also oxidize and corrode.

Finally, check your local laws. Shotguns are not regulated all that much and are ideal for boat use since you have the spread and the projectiles don't travel too far. Mossberg makes a good SS shotgun suitable for marine use. Pistols are problematic from both a legal and accuracy sense.

Pull!

 
By Matt Anderson (xaggie) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 1:09 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
True Swass thus the point of CCW is no one should ever know that you are in posession of a firearm. Also the first thing taught in the class is you NEVER leave you firearm somewhere where you are not, and if you do nobody even an adult should be able to find it even if looking for said item. The more I think about it the more I feel the boat itself might not be the best place for a firearm, rather locked in a glove box of my vehicle or directly on my person.
 
By swass (swass) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 1:19 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I don't care if you have it tucked under your scrotum, Matt....if there's a weapon on board, I want to know about it. Maybe that's just me.
 
By Steve (kneebone) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 1:26 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Bad idea. How many people have posted about their boards, stereo stuff etc being ripped off at a marina. If you're gonna carry a gun, you CARRY the gun. Don't leave it in your truck or boat for some scroat to steal. Maybe on a camping trip in the glades or the delta, but not for everyday lake/river trips. Plus you'll always be worrying where it is, are the kids near it, where to carry it while in your board shorts.
 
By mcfatty (mcfatty) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 1:41 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I always wonder about people who feel it necessary to carry a weapon. Who are you scared of?
 
By thomas (tball) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 1:46 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
a louisville slugger and a stun-gun will take care of most problems. I'd leave the firearms at home.
 
By Bobby Mucic (bobbymucic) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 1:55 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I have several law enforcement buddies that I ride and camp with. The LAPD guys rarely ever travel without. The gov. guys often don't bring along.

If they must leave it on the boat, they'll tell me and I'll keep an eye on it (usually it in their backpack or a fanny pack (man purse ) when they are in the water.

I've asked them about why they sometimes do or don't carry. Basically, they weigh out if they are safer with it, or putting people at risk if they take it. For example, at lake powell, 15 people, 3 law enforcement...none bothered to take their guns knowing we'd be drinking and sharing lots of space. On the other hand, local camping near LA and Bakersfield, these guys don't like to be away from their guns.

It's been weird hanging out with these guys. I went snowboarding in Utah with a few of them, and checking in at the airport was interesting. I could have upgraded to business class... as a prisoner in transport...

Anyway, I agree with your added post.. you are safer without it.

 
By A. P. (bigdad) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 3:42 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Police Officers carry firearms off duty because you still are a police officer even out of uniform and are expected to act appropriately. This does not mean that you take police action everytime you see a crime being committed. Off Duty police officers are told it is better to be a good witness rather than a hero when you witness something off duty. You can follow a suspect from a distance and call the local Police Department and guide the "uniformed" officers towards the suspect and give a good statement of what you saw. We carry our firearms off duty just in case ourselves or our family become threatened by a criminal. It is there to protect ourselves and others from certain death or great bodily injury. Not to walk around like a cowboy in the wild west.

As far as bringing it on the boat. I don't like it. I don't really understand why you need to bring it on. It's not like someone is going to come aboard and "carjack" you. Robberies on the water? Not likely. Other violent crimes... chances are slim.

You are just asking for trouble bringing a gun on the boat. You can't carry it with all the time so you would have to stow it. Too many people around that would have access to it. I guess you could get a neoprene shoulder holster when it's your turn to wakeboard though.

 
By Barry (barry) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 4:05 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I take mine on the boat.
 
By Neil fett (bigasswake) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 4:54 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Isin't it CHL? (Concealed Handgun License)
What state are you in ?

 
By Neil fett (bigasswake) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 5:00 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
In Texas it s A (CHL)

And my handgun goes with the boat never on the boat i.e. stays in the truck. Drinking+Guns=Fishing with weapons = me in jail

 
By Matt Anderson (xaggie) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 5:56 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
True mismatched my terms CCC CCW all that stuff, but your right in Texas it is a CHL.

 
By Greg Davis (vortech347) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 6:06 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I have a CHL in Texas but never carry it on the boat. It stays in the truck locked up. We usually have kids around and always have some form of alcohol in the boat or at the campsite.

If we are camping overnight I will put it in the tent but will always have it with me so it's not left alone unattended. In the morning it goes back in the truck locked up.

Guns are tools. And just as if you gave the keys to your 5 year old and they started up the car and drove down the road, a gun is very dangerous in the hands of the inexperienced.

 
By Ricci Ostermayer (txmotorcop) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 6:34 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I think everyone in this post has good reasons on why or why not to carry a weapon. I believe it depends on the situation and if there had been any problems on that particular lake. You can always ask the water marine officers and they will tell you. down in texas i have never heard of people being jacked in the water, although i know there had been disturbances mostly due to people who cant control their liquor.
 
By shane (auto) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 6:53 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
If you have a CHL then by means carry where it is lawful. I live in Texas, and the boat is one place I don't always carry. It is a personal decision, decide upon the pros and cons, go from there. Would never even think of being w/o on a day to day basis especially in DFW.
 
By Robert (ag4ever) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 8:27 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Since we usually don't have alcohol on the boat (alcohol + texas sun = dehydration), I don't have a problem. There are even times that I would like to have it on the boat with me. In the middle of Travis if you are "boatjacked" then it would certainly mean death since swiming to shore just might be a killer. Also, there are those on some lakes that feel alcohol + water = fun, and when their senses are impaired they might feel more apt to do something stupid and risk my life.

The biggest reservations I have are: possible access to kids and if you have it you MIGHT actually use it, and then you would have to deal with the repercussions.

Right now, I think I will just stay alert and keep the guns at home, but my opinion might change at any time.

 
By A. P. (bigdad) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 2:00 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
For those who do have a CHL or CCW, I wonder why do you carry a firearm? I know about your second amendment right but I am curious what is your intention when you are carrying a weapon?
 
By justin (beerdrnknboardr) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 3:27 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I have not, but have wanted to because I'll occasionally see some nice Bucks on BLM land around the lake. If it wasnt for it being illegal on the lake, the police boat going in to that cove to check the 5mph zone, and the problems tha would arise when tryin to bring a dear back on a nice wake boat i'd do it for sure. And hey if ya really feel you need some fire power on the boat you can always get a bunch of flare guns right. But I will occasionaly have a shotgun in the truck throughout the summer if i have been or am gonna shoot some clays, and toward late summer when seasons open up i might have a couple rifles in their too in case i have time to get a hunt in before everybody can go riding. Plus with the fact that a few people i know have had their trailers burglarized so i figure it couldnt hurt to have one just in case
 
By Sean (aircanada) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 3:48 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Why not make like a rapper and install a secret compartment..

http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/crimelaw/features/1898/


 
By shane (auto) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 6:41 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
AP, I generally don't like to answer questions like that, especially on a forum where it so doesn't need to be discussed as there are many other places to do so on the internet. I will, as your question seemed curious in nature, not hostile. I treat a CHL like a spare tire, cell phone, or tools. I never leave home without any of the above. Why? I hope I never need to use any of the above in an emergency, but in case I do, I have the above with me, the same as with a gun. It is a method of last resort, to save the life of me and my family. The one time I did need it was 6 years ago, the firearm probably saved my life or a serious assault. I do not want to be in a situation where I give up my posessions, and the criminal shoots me anyway, has happened here and everywhere. It's a personal choice, that anyone should think long and hard about. I hope this answers you question. Like my father always said, you are responsible for yourself, no one else will protect or provide for you.
 
By john smith (x2hoss) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 7:07 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Hey Don Johnson, keep the gun at home man, Wakeboarding-boating is a family fun pastime.If you need a gun to make it that much more enjoyable give it up.My family doesnt need a scare by seeing some idiot with a gun while out on our boat. Thats my .02 and i dont care if ya like it!!!!
 
By Kirk (kirk) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 7:23 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
A couple years ago we were on the Columbia River at the Quillomene Bay area. It was windy so everyone was partying on the beach. Some guys in a 30' Go fast pulled up to the beach. They were obviously drunk. One of them pulls out an AR-15 from the boat and walks down the beach and starts shooting at cans his buddy was throwing into the water. Scared the Sh*t out of me... We got out of there pretty fast.
I am an avid hunter and own guns, but there is a time and place for using them. This was not the time OR the place for that kind of BS.

 
By BigD (bigd) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 7:58 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Pop a Cap!


 
By A. P. (bigdad) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 9:18 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Shane-
For those reasons I understand and empathize with the desire to carry a concealed weapon. Unfortunately I think too many incidents like the one described by kirk would occur out on the water. If you have a CCW/CHL then you are expected to have it on you at all times in public. Otherwise what is the use of carrying a weapon if you don’t have immediate access to it. If you feel the need to protect your life and your family, chances are the threat is going to happen immediately. You won’t have time to locate your gun where you stowed it, take the safeties/locks off and use it. You need to have it readily accessible so that your only reaction is to grab it and use it.

I don’t see how that is plausible on the boat. I can’t imagine someone keep a .38 in the waistband of their board shorts. If you don’t keep it on you then you have to stow it. Are you going to lock it up? Then the same situation as above applies. When the immediate threat happens you won’t have time to get your gun. So maybe you leave it in the glove compartment. What if you have kids in the boat. You turn your head or are out swimming and one of the kids grabs it. Shutter the thought. Maybe you have no kids on the boat and only adults. You are out drinking having a good time. Combination of the sun, alcohol and one of your “friends” who can’t handle his alcohol and gets in an argument with some other boater, this obnoxious yahoo decides to grab your gun to “show him”.

Like I said earlier. I can’t see of any reason to bring a gun out on the water. The chances of something violent happening are so slim it’s just not worth it. Just asking for trouble.

 
By shane (auto) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 9:31 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
ap, that is why 99% of the time I do not bring a gun on the boat, I don't have a personal need, nor have ever, but I would certainly not judge others. Now on my duck hunting boat probably a couple of shotguns and a handgun, nothing like going to an out of the way area on corp land (where people like to hang and congregate at all hours)around 3:00a.m., totally dark never knowing what you are going to find, wouldn't even think twice, it goes with me.
 
By Pierce Bronkite (pierce_bronkite) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 9:32 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I can’t imagine someone keep a .38 in the waistband of their board shorts.

Now that would be a funny site!!

 
By Bob (bob) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 9:57 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I liked Swass' "scrotum" quote. If you have a concealed weapons permit you obviously know the rules about leaving guns laying around for others to find so i dont know why anyone would bring that up except to point out that it is difficult to store it while on the boat especially if you do get in the water (could use a gun lock or locking case). This is a touchy subject for many as you see in the news today but that is why i like living in this country, "FREEDOM TO CHOOSE", i dont carry one but have thought about getting a CWP, dont think i would feel the dire need to have it on me while on the water but after carrying it for some time(like a cell phone) you might feel like your naked or missing something and not have that "secure" feeling??
 
By Mike Souza (ridn9high) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 11:07 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
A women tells the officer "officer I saw the whole thing happen. It was a ride by shooting. That SOB was doing a raley and busted a cap in that fishermans ass for getting in his way."

I carry about 3 guns in my boat. But that isn't my ski boat. That would be my Duck boat.
I have never even thought of taking a gun with me out boarding. If I go on a houseboat or camping trip we might have our .22 pistol. But not on a daily trip.

 
By Mike Souza (ridn9high) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 11:29 am:    Edit Post Delete Post


 
By Daniel Liguori (dliguori) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 11:45 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Suddenly I feel safer knowing that there are guns being carried in boats across the U.S. It's a good thing too because without them the handgun death rate might go down and we Americans wouldn't hold the record.
 
By fuel (fuel) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 12:08 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Situations are different for everyone. I have a close friend who has his CHL. He owns a pawn shop and has a damn good reason to carry one. Sometimes after work, we go riding and I let him put it in my boat rather than making him lock it up his truck, where it is much more likely to get stolen. Both of us would rather see the damn gun go sinking to the bottom of the lake than have someone steal his gun and then use it in a crime, possibly hurting or killing someone. None of us have kids, so that is not a problem. Also, I don't allow alcohol on my boat. Just as I don't allow someone to drink and drive my truck. I know I will step on a few toes, but in my opinion, it is just a bad idea to drink and boat. I have seen more accidents/near accidents/bad situations caused by drunken boaters than I care to recall.

If anyone thinks it is unsafe to carry a gun on a boat but thinks it's okay to drink while driving a boat, they are a damn hypocrite. I know I will get a lot of hate mail for that because it isn't the "cool" thing to say. But

 
By Karl De Looff (boarditup) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 12:53 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I have boarded many boats with owner's guns on them. The law-abiding citizen has never threatened me. I personally do not fear anyone with a concealed weapons permit. Now drunk hunters, that is a different story. Drug runners are always a treat.

I do not recommend the mix of kids and guns. However, having lived around trained, armed people day and night for over a decade, I personally have no fear of firearms (a ton of respect). If you do carry a firearm, you have to be in the right mental state to use it properly. Anger and alcohol don't mix with gunpowder.

 
By Matt Anderson (xaggie) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 1:15 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Well put Karl, no kids no booze.
 
By Daniel Liguori (dliguori) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 4:31 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
fuel (fuel) I don't think anyone is going to call you uncool for being responsible. However, I really don't see the connection between drinking and driving and bringing a gun on the water for safety. I completly agree with your friend bringing his instead of leaving it in the car, but bringing one for protection seems to invite a heated situation rather than defuse it. Just my opinion! Here in So Cal they basically don't give concieled gun permits, and people aren't raised around guns to the extent of those in other regions of the county. That's probably why the idea makes me nervous.
 
By Daniel Liguori (dliguori) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 4:37 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Oh...and I agree that drinking and driving is far more dangerous, I just don't think they have anything to do with each other.
 
By shane (auto) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 5:09 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
john using the argument you presented I guess guns don't belong in the most stressful of environments of all, the freeways. Is this correct? The freeways are one of the reasons people around hear have a CHL. There have been two documented cases of people defending themselves against road rage incidents.
 
By john smith (x2hoss) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 5:20 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Sorry for the negative post, and i am gonna have to stay away from this posting, My best friend blew the back of his head off,and it had quite an impact on me over the years.My son is 10 with worries of other kids sneaking guns into his school. whatever you decide to do ,on or off the boat, use your head........Lata
 
By shane (auto) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 5:47 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
john very well, that's why I hesitated initially because inevitably someone will be effected in a personal way. That's why I like this forum, light conversation about a cool sport, there are plenty of other places to discuss this topic on the net.
 
By Troy Lindstrom (troyl) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 7:06 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Considering what an HOT subject this can be, I think our board has handled it very well. You should all give yourselves a hand
 
By Matt Anderson (xaggie) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 7:20 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
As I said earlier i don't want it to be inflamatory or stir anything up, I just thought since this was the most concentrated boating site I visit I could get a balanced opinion. Sorry John for being an ass earlier, again I just wanted some pros and cons to think about from simmilar minded people. Again thanks, Matt
 
By Karl De Looff (boarditup) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 7:51 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Here is a final shot. When I was a kid in school during hunting season we could take our rifles to school and put them in the janitor's closet so we could hunt the fields on the way home. This was limited to high school students and some limited junior high students. We never had an incident or a problem. We were raised around guns and we respected them as a dangerous tool. Can you imagine that situation today?
 
By wuneyewilly (wuneyewilly) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 11:44 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Having family in law enforcement, there is always a gun in my boat whether mine or the states.

You wont know a responsible owner, or law enforement officer, even has one.

There will always be those careless, inbred dumbasses that would make this topic seem ridiculous, dangerous, or unnecessary. The few ruining for the masses!

Guns are a right in the US and aren't going anywhere...bitch about something you CAN change!

Who makes a gun rack for my tower? lol



(Message edited by wuneyewilly on March 10, 2004)

 
By fuel (fuel) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 12:31 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Daniel, sorry, I was being sarcastic with the "cool" remark. I never can get the written word to convey my message right.

I didn't think the original post said anything about bringing a gun on the boat for saftey (protection) reasons. Personally, I don't see why you would need one for that unless you were in the ocean (piracy has actually been on the rise the last few years). However, what I am trying to say (rather badly, I might add) is that many people get all hysterical when you mention anything about guns (even when that gun is owned by a law abiding citizen), but think it is totally alright to drink and boat. Which is inherently more dangerous? Having someone that is responsible and knowledgable about firearms carry one on their boat, putting it (unloaded) and in a safe place or having a bunch of guys drink beer all day while in the sun getting dehydrated and operating a boat?

Man, I wish I could convey what I am trying to say. Maybe this will help:

Idiot who uses a gun carelessly or with ill intent = bad

Law abiding citizen who uses gun only when needed (self defense) = good

Idiot who gets drunk and tries to run over my rider with his fountain boat = bad

Guy who goes out with buds and family and uses his boat responsibly = good

What I'm trying to say is that neither guns, boats, or even alcohol are inherently bad. It is all in how they are used. I know one thing though, I worry much more about drunk drivers (boats or cars) than getting shot. Why? Because statistically you are much more likely to get killed by a drunk driver. And this is coming from a guy that's had guns pulled on him before.

BTW, Daniel, is that your kid? He looks like he is tokin' up! Cute kid, nonetheless. Congrats.

 
By barefooter (prostar205v) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 7:06 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Very interesting subject. I will also weigh in my thoughts. Personally, I would not allow a firearm on my boat. For this simple reason. I am not accustomed to being around firearms, therfore, neither is my son (3yrs). My fear is that because I have not been eductated with firearm's I know that neither would be my son (especially at his age). Now, squirt guns...he knows about those. Hence my fear. At the same time because I am not educated to guns, I am not going to take a stand against them. I could reasonably see a need to carry a gun on the boat if you are on houseboat in the middle of a large lake etc. I will say that it would scare the **** out of me to see a gun on a beach while hanging out. We can assume that like many other things in life you have responsible users and non-responsible users. I have no need to worry around a responsible user...because I should not know whether he/she is in posession. It is the non-responsible users that I fear. That fear was realized about 6 years ago driving home around 2am from a business trip and having a car pull up beside me and flashing a gun. Not cool....not a responsible user.

(Message edited by prostar205v on March 11, 2004)

 
By Chris Anthony (cla17) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 11:40 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
That cartoon is just great Mike
 
By Matt (mvda) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 12:03 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Just mount one of these on your tower. It'll be outta reach of the kids and not even the coast guard will want to mess with you.



 
By Mike Souza (ridn9high) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 12:19 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
wuneyewilly- I found you a gun rack for your tower.

 
By Tony Gamberutti (gambo2166) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 12:39 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Ok tell me all the times you needed a gun on your boat to protect you in a lake or a river. How many of you have been robbed? I just dont see a reson to bring it. But if there has been many of you that had to use it because you have been robbed or boatjacking then I standed corected. just my 2 cent.
 
By wuneyewilly (wuneyewilly) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 1:03 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Tony- no ofense, but your ignorance may be bliss for you, but I'd rather not become a victim first, and THEN be justified in your eys.

I dont think anyone has said on this thread that they would, or do pack, so they can randomly blast caps at floating debris, other boats or people. In fact, you wont know a responsible owner has one when I am getting gas next to you....or we launch at the same time.

I also dont need my stereo to be what it is, but why do I have to justify myself to you anyway? To each their own and if it doesnt affect you, dont trip so hard about it.

Look at it this way...if some irresponsible piece of crap freaks and does start a rampage, we FEW can save your butt!

...and not that I need to, but I have 3 mbrs of my family in LE, have been raised to respect and properly taught since 6, am licensed and have never used it...nor shown it to anyone, for that matter.

Mike- Does the BU have a matching wood grain dash to go with that O/U shotgun? Think the rider would be nervous looking down those when Ralied?

 
By Mike Souza (ridn9high) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 1:19 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
wuneye- This boat is state of the art. Has a reloader, custom shell holders, and has a walnut dash to match your custom weatherby O/U.
 
By Tony Gamberutti (gambo2166) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 1:21 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
No ofence taken. I just asked a question but you didnt anwser it.
 
By mcfatty (mcfatty) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 1:30 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Question for those who carry guns.

What is your idea of self defense? Shooting some one who's kicking your ass cause they wouldn't put up with your gun-toting attitude.

It seems people who would carry guns are less tolerable to everyday situations.
Instead of dismissing a conflict with words or a hand gesture and moving on, you might push it farther thinking that "I have a gun, what's he going to do"?

 
By Justin Rudd (jrudd) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 1:38 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
If you guys could just take a CHL class I think your opinions of people who carry would be completely different. I have not taken, but have friends and family who have. The teachers preach that by carrying there is an inherent risk for you and your future. I.E…If you choose to show and/or use that weapon the consequences could be devastating. I am with Shane, this is something that is just personal preference, the arguments a generally in vain.
 
By wuneyewilly (wuneyewilly) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 2:01 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Answering towards the direction asked...A gun should only be used if you reasonably feel your life is in danger and are prepared to cause death...not to cause fear, or show off! If my ass was being kicked to the point I would die unless I revealed it, then yes.

Give the majority of owners the benefit of doubt and realize we aren't gang banging punks, have it stuffed in our sagg'in jeans, attend Klan, Crip or Jihad meetings...and have never had to point it at, nor shoot anyone, thank God!

Maybe this thread topic is most interesting to teenagers and twenty year olds...I am 31, never been convicted on anything, am law abiding, pay taxes, vote, own a house and have 2.36 kids.

People killed each other long before the invention of guns and would continue to do so if they were are relinquished. Educate yourself of what you fear, dont just jump on the 'guns and their owners are the downfall of society' bandwagon.

 
By mcfatty (mcfatty) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 2:18 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I'm 30, have 2 kids, own a house and I own a handgun. It has never crossed my mind to bring it on the boat.
People who find it necessary carry guns must live in a fearfilled world.

Do you have pillows on the bathroom floor "just in case" you fall while getting out of the shower?

 
By wuneyewilly (wuneyewilly) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 3:23 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Please, for your kids sake, and to not personally contribute towards the 101 reasons to ban guns...sell yours!

"Do you have pillows....." Are you seriously 30?

Do you wear a seat belt?

Lock your doors?

Eat right and exercise?

Tell your kids to look both ways before they cross the street?

Assuming you said 'uh huh'...what the hell for? Has a selt belt saved your life? Been a victim of burglary? Had heart attacks? Kids been ran over?

I probably shouldnt even have responded to your asinine rebutal.

 
By shane (auto) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 3:45 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Well Mcfatty as I stated before, I have prevented my own carjacking. Carrying a gun is like carrying a spare or tools, a tool that you hope you never need to use, but have it if necessary. I live in reality, I am a consultant who travels to all parts of town, good and bad. CHL people are the last people in Texas as a whole that will brandish a weapon or heighten the situation, we will walk away at all costs, just not worth the effort.

I don't brawl or fight anymore, not worth my time or injury. In Texas it is not wise to walk up and start assaulting anyone to the head or chest, because that qualifies as a "deadly assault" and two people that I know of have responded with deadly force and were no billed by the grand jury. So Mcfatty that is the Texas legislature's defintition of when to respond with deadly force. Very friendly state when 230K people carry guns.

I find it very striking that most of the people that carry were pretty polite about stating the reasons of why we carry. Most of the people who don't carry were just curious. A few still basically accused the CHL crowd of being paranoid. Just because I choose a different line of thinking and reality than another's opinion is not free license to take pot shot's. Then again why should I paranoid, I carry a gun. I am siging out on this one, like Justin said, the argument is vain.

 
By Barry (barry) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 4:34 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
[Question for those who carry guns.

What is your idea of self defense? Shooting some one who's kicking your ass cause they wouldn't put up with your gun-toting attitude.

It seems people who would carry guns are less tolerable to everyday situations.
Instead of dismissing a conflict with words or a hand gesture and moving on, you might push it farther thinking that "I have a gun, what's he going to do"? ]

I can't speak for all who carry but, you're 100% wrong in my case, actually, 150% wrong.

I was a fighter with a big mouth as a kid, I looked for trouble.. nothing ever on record or i wouldn't have got my permit.
Anyway, the day I got my permit I was driving down 99 minding my own business when another driver cut me off.. even then my typical reaction would have been to flip the guy off and hope he can read lips. Instead, I thought to myself.. " I have a tool that can take this guys life, if I pull over this could escalate to him pulling out a tire iron, etc.. and the result would end in a shooting". Instead, I shrugged it off and continued on my way. As silly as it sound, carrying a firearm totally changed my way of thinking. I stay far away from trouble and avoid even 'iffy' situations for fear of having to use my firearm.. this has worked for almost 15 years.
Think about the consequence to taking someones life.
Will you be able to live with yourself? I don't care how much of a man a person thinks he is, taking someones life will most certainly lead to therapy.

It would be a HUGE financial drain. Sure, you'll most likely get off with 'justifiable homocide' but you have legal fees.. because you're not charged with a crime doesn't mean you're not going to be dragged through a civil trial and forced to give up everything you've worked for.

You're going to lose friends and maybe even driven out of your community by being tagged a murderer.

How will it affect your job?

What about retaliation?

The lost goes on.

The "I have a gun.. what's he going to do?" doesn't ring true with the 30 or so people I know who carry. Matter of fact, the Sheriff himself told me that in all his years of being with the department, he's never had to remove a permit due to 'dirty harry' type holders.
It just doesn't happen that way.

What is a 'gun toting attitude'? Do you know anyone who has a permit? Or, are you just assuming that anyone who packs is a vigilante.

I think most permit holders take this *very* seriously and are far more aware and fearful of the consequence of legally taking someone's life than those who do not carry. It is not cool, it's not fun and it's not a joke. The responsibility and character of those who carry is far greater than you're giving credit to.

B-


 
By mark (propkiller) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 6:01 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Here is another side to look at. I have been in law enforcement since I was 22 years old. So I have pretty much been able to cary a gun since I have been old enough to buy one.

In that time I have never filed charges on any person who had taken the legal steps to carry a concealed weapon. Yet I have arrested numerous people for carrying a concealed weapon.

Almost every one of them had a criminal record and was believed to have gang affiliations. (PC way to say bangers)

Furthermore, unless I am going out drinking I probably have a gun with me somewhere (so swass if you ever catch up with me on the lake just assume I have one). I have never pulled a gun out on someone when off duty. I know many of our guys who have and every one of those occasions involved some one else in danger.

Sorry, there is my rant. Feel free to go on with your day.

 
By shane (auto) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 6:33 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
barry said it all
 
By Ryan Lukjanowicz (ryan387) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 7:17 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
If anyone in this entire board can give me a situation they have been in where they would have needed a gun on their wakeboat...I will be very impressed and humbled. Guns are not the answer to any problems, they only make it worse. Even if you are being "boatjacked" what is the point of shooting at someone? Are they going to have a trailer waiting at the launch to take your boat away? If someone has the balls to "boatjack" you arent they going to have a gun too? I can see carrying a gun on the ocean or on a long trip...maybe...but dont be stupid. Its not worth killing someone to keep your boat...buy some insurance and keep your life.
 
By shane (auto) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 7:53 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
ryan wouldn't it be nice to be in control in the situation instead of the criminal, just because you surrender your posessions does not mean that they will not harm you. Get a clue, it's cheap.
 
By Ryan Lukjanowicz (ryan387) on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 9:01 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
you are an idiot shane. you get a clue..why would someone harm you if they were "boatjacking you". For fun? No, by surrendering you just made it easier for them to jack you and they are less likely to become violent. Surrendering your possessions is not stupid, its hard to do, but smart. Guns may be cheap (which they shouldnt be) but i dont feel the need to possess one at any time...too much responsibility, and from the level of intelligence that you demonstrated in your post i would say that you are not ready for a gun either. Don't shoot yourself
 
By Justin Rudd (jrudd) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:51 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Level of intelligence? You just called someone an idiot on a messageboard...
 
By shane (auto) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 5:40 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Ryan, when people respond with insults, I usually try and avoid responding because the poster displays an immense lack of maturity, and debate skills. I am glad you have master insight into the criminal mind. How about reading this link and tell me if things turned out for this victim by surrendering, http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/030404dntexexecute.4fc79c1f.html
I was in the same establishment when the guy left, the incident happened right up the street, and he didn't resist, end result, dead with 10 shots to the head, and yeah it was for fun. Please don't force me to post a million more links to the same effect. If you read my posts carefully you can see that I do not carry a gun when wakeboarding, I was referencing other parts of my daily life.

I am also delighted you have a deep understanding of the free market, and have determined that guns should cost more. Any idea on how much more? Should firearms cost more so poor people can't afford them for self-defense? Should only the wealthy have firearms? That is what I am gleaning from your observation. A very elitist attitude. What other rights should be reserved for the wealthy?

Having lived through several doses of reality that I do not wish on most people, I can only hope that you aware of reality and you surroundings. The naiveté you have displayed is astounding, it's almost like you do not read or listen to any type of news medium. It's great to live in utopia, I only wish I could live in the same place as you, unfortunately I am grounded solidly in reality. I truly hope you only encounter "kind" criminals in your journey.

 
By swass (swass) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 6:11 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I'll keep that in mind, Mark!
 
By mcfatty (mcfatty) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 7:30 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Barry well said. I hope all weapon carring people are aware as you are of the consequences.

Shane, what kinds of doses of reality are you talking about?
It sounds like you have a very grim outlook on people in general. Everybody's out to get me!




 
By mcfatty (mcfatty) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 7:46 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Willy,

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

 
By bill montanye (bill) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 7:56 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
WOW i didnt know this many Texas riders carried guns on their boats or were this passionite about it..it will make me think twice about yelling at them for F'N up my water and stealing my line next time :-)

i dont see the point of having it on the boat but in this day and age have a CW leaglly for protection isnt a bad idea for a responsible adult who has the right temperment and a good head on their shoulders.

I vote keep them off the boat for the everyday riding trip but if your going on a long trip out of town or camping somewhere and will feel safer for you and your family to bring it then thats your right under the current laws.Now a Police officer or trained person in a field that require them to normally carry a gun then i can see them carring it along with them on the boat .However i wouldnt allow it on my boat because i would be a little uncomfortable having it there where it could accidentally go off or get in the wrong hands IE kids,drunk curious boarder or whatever..



 
By shane (auto) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 9:19 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Doses of reality for $100 mcfatty, almost drowned in college, boat filling with water (no bilge) at night 4' chop, 40 mph winds. lost in the wilderness 8 yrs old in Alaska for about 8 hours. Snowmachine broke down 5 miles from anywhere, night and -20. These are just a few examples of events that I only had myself to rely upon, no one else was there to help or bail me out. I don't feel as though everyone's out to get me, but we live in a violent world, and chance favors the prepared.
 
By A. P. (bigdad) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:41 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
how does being lost in the wilderness at 8 years old support your argument for carrying a gun in the boat?
 
By shane (auto) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:47 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
nothing at all, someone was questioning what doses of reality i had faced, which goes to my position that you really have no one to count on but yourself. As I said, I do not carry a gun in my wakeboard.
 
By A. P. (bigdad) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:09 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Shane-

I know I am going to offend you. I think the question into the doeses of reality you experienced were inquiring more about violent situations where you were attacked.

To be honest, just looking at your examples you gave show that your ignorance by putting yourself in those dangerous situations. I realize I don't know the whole story. But unless someone abandoned you, you got yourself lost in the wilderness in Alaska. What are you doing out in the water when the winds are 40 mph, in a boat without proper equipment, conditions unsuitable for boating and at night...by yourself? I assume you are talking about a snowplow? Once again did you absolutely need to be out there with an improper working snowplow or driving in conditions you weren't prepared for.

I am sure you learned a lot from these experiences but don't forget that all of this could have been prevented by proper planning.

The link you posted requires me to sign up and I get enough spam so I don't know the details. But as a police officer I can honestly tell you random crime rarely happens. There is always a motive and a reason when someone gets hurt. The numerous murders and shootings you hear about in the news don't happen to random people. However there are some situations where innocent people get hurt. But don't think that just because Los Angeles had over a 650 murders last year that you are going to be killed when you drive through the city.

 
By mcfatty (mcfatty) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:12 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
And in all of those situations a gun helped you though it? Common sense would keep you out of half of the stuff you listed, like out on a snowmobile 5 miles from anywhere w/-20 temps.

If someone punching you in the face is life threating to you, you're a danger to your community.

You're link proves nothing. There will be more media exposure when somebody is killed. I would bet 99% of robberies don't involve violence.



 
By mcfatty (mcfatty) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:17 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I started typing my message an hour ago (damn work) so I didn't mean to have commented on some things already said.
 
By Barry (barry) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:16 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
A.P,
Do you carry your firearm when you're off duty?

 
By shane (auto) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:38 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
AP,

Incident 1. Wondered off from my parents, failure to listen. Definitely my fault.

2. Duckhunting, winter storm blew in, was not in forecast. I started back as soon as the wind picked up. Guess that's part of the risk.

3. If you stay inside everytime the temp hits 20 below in Fairbanks, Alaska you will have a boring life, and your are in the wilderness in AK. Snowmachin=Snowmobile=Sled I guess I should have known the brand new sled was going to develop mechanical issues.

The link proves that if your are not in control of the situation, your life can be over. I did not write the Texas Legislature's rules for deadly force, blame the legislators. Again a little comprehension.

AP, I agree random crime hardly ever happens, and I greatly reduce my chances, by locking doors, for the most part staying out of bars, being aware of my surroundings, and not provoking anyone.

I will go ahead and offend everyone hear, reading comprehension is platinum, and I think AP and McFatty could use a course. I never said a gun helped me through any of these situations, I merely stated that you as person are responsible for yourself, period no one else.

Ignorance???? You are within your rights to feel that way, but I did not get to my position in life by being the dullest knife in the drawer. The LEO's that I hunt, shoot, and socialize with obviously don't feel the same way about my competence level, and that's all that matters, not some anonymous poster on the internet who has comprehension issues. If you would like to speak with me offline, please shoot me an email. Peace.



 
By Robert (ag4ever) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 1:10 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Mcfatty,

If you think being hit in the face is not a serious offense, come on over. I am sure I would enjoy hitting you in the face, as would a few of my friends. I am not saying you desrve it, just saying that a statement like you made is absurd.

Being hit in the face IS a life threatining event. There are many things in the region of the head that if struck with enough force can cause death, but I guess everybody is a danger to their neiborhood, since nobody is imune to a deadly blow to the head.

BTW, please give an example of the last time you knew a person was carring with a CHL, and you felt it was endangering your life.

I am not asking when the last time somebody had a gun, and you were fearfull of your life, but only a CHL toter.

 
By mcfatty (mcfatty) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 1:28 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Robert,

You'll need a few of your friends.

I don't fear toters. My boss is a toter. I question why carry at all and especially on a wakeboard boat!





 
By David Burns (dbjts) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 2:28 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
A point of view from the UK;

The UK have for many years now had some of the worlds most stringent firearms laws. Firearms certificate holders were required to be thoroughly vetted and be free from any form of mental health problems, any history of depression and any criminal convictions.
Hand guns could only be legaly used at police approved ranges and the carrying of firearms other than too and from there place of use was prohibited.
Legaly held firearms rarely fell in the the hands of criminals as all certificate holders were compelled by law (and were inspected) to house their weapons in steel lockable cabinates fixed to the fabric of the building.
So having established that all the legally held firearms were held by law abidding people it naturally followed that there was very little crime commited with legaly held firearms.
Two notable exeptions occured one in the late 80s and one in the late 90s when firearms certificate holders went on "killing sprees".
A media frenzy demanding the banning of all hand guns followed the second of these events probably fueled by the fact that a number of children were involved.
As the firearms community was a small minority of the population over here the media had little trouble convincing the voting public that leaglly held hand guns were the route of all evil.
Legistation following these events means that nobody but the armed forces and the police now have any legal access to hand guns.
But of course the fact of the matter was that illegally held hand guns were and resposible for 99.9% of all gun crime in the UK.
Hand gun deaths have continued to rise every year since and the old saying "if you outlaw guns only the outlaws will have guns" has proved to be true.
Given the legal opportunity I would carry a gun because theres another old saying "its better to be tried by twelve than carried by six".

(Message edited by dbjts on March 12, 2004)

 
By A. P. (bigdad) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 3:54 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
A little background on myself. I am currently assigned to a tactical street crime team and I’m on the SWAT team for an urban city department. I am also a court certified expert in the manufacturing, sales and use of methamphetamines and also an expert in Northern California Hispanic criminal street gangs. I have investigated numerous heinous crimes which resulted in the arrest and conviction of some of the most dangerous gang members in California. There are many criminals who are serving multiple years to life in the state and federal penitentiary based on my investigations and arrests. I do not state this to brag about my achievements. I only say this because on some occasions I have been told by these convicted felons that they or their homies would try to kill me.

So to answer your question, do I carry a firearm off duty? You bet I do. I do not live in the area where I work. I do not want to be recognized. I don’t worry too much about because for the most part these criminals are all talk. They know better than to try to put a hit on a cop. But just in case I have my weapon.

I also carry a firearm off duty for the reasons I explained in an earlier post. If I see a major crime, I will get involved. But my involvement will only be limited to being a good witness and following the suspect until they are captured. But by even doing that I’m putting my life in danger and have a need for my off duty firearm. And honestly if presented with a life threatening altercation, my first reaction will be to leave the area and not get into a gun fight. With proper tactics that should always be an option.

I find it alarming that it seems some people on this board are writing posts that indicate they would pull out a gun if they got into a fight because a “blow to your head could kill you”. I’m not denying that there is a chance you could get killed by being punched in the head by realistically that is not going to happen. Being responsible adults with a passion for an arguably expensive sport, I would hope we have enough common sense to avoid getting into fights. I also teach DARE to 6th graders and I tell them fighting is bad because you always get hurt and you should take steps to avoid it. The same goes for 30 year old men. Just because someone calls you names or may have cut you off doesn’t mean you should kick their a$$. Shrug it off. Fights can be avoided. Just walk away. Deescalate the situation.

One more thing. David- to quote you
:
“Legistation following these events means that nobody but the armed forces and the police now have any legal access to hand guns.
But of course the fact of the matter was that illegally held hand guns were and resposible for 99.9% of all gun crime in the UK.”

DUH! If only the police and the army are allowed to have guns then that means any crime involved using a gun was done by an illegal gun. The 99.9% means nothing. Actual numbers are relevant.

I also think we strayed from the original topic. I don’t think a gun is needed in a boat because I can’t think of a situation where it could be used on the average day of boarding. People having CCW’s I’m still on the fence about.

 
By fuel (fuel) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 5:37 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
A.P., so it is alright for you to carry a gun off duty to protect yourself and your family , but for the average citizen, it's not? I guess a government official's life is more valuable than a regular citizen. I'm not saying you shouldn't carry while off-duty, but to do so and then critize others for doing the same thing is hypocritical and elitist.

I can tell ya'll a situation where one was needed. It was at the lake, but not on a boat. When I was a little kid, my mom would take us to the lake to swim at this beach way off the beaten path. She always carried a pistol with her, just in case. It was us and our next door neighbor, who was good looking, and her daughter. These guys were at the opposite end of the cove, fishing and getting drunk. They were cussing and then they notice us over there, they start saying all kinds of stuff that I didn't quite understand at the time, but understand now. Those dudes crank up their boat and start heading straight to us. I can't read minds, but I can tell you right now, those guys were up to no good. Anyway my mom tells us kids and my neighbor to hurry up and get out of the water. We do as we're told and those guys come hauling ass up to the shore. My mom (who's about 4'11) steps out in plain view holding her S&W .38 Police Special Revolver in plain sight. Those guys come up about 2 feet from the shore. They see my mom holding that pistol and all of a sudden, they didn't want to bother us anymore. They hauled ass out of there and we went home.

That all happened in a very, very short time. My mom was already getting a little nervous and had gotten out of the water, but when they cranked up and started heading our way, we barely had time to get out of the water and we were right by the shore. We did not have time for all four of us to get in the car, back up, pull forward, back up again and then drive off on the very rough dirt rough. No way.

That is one case where I'm glad my mom carried a pistol with her. No telling what would've happened if she hadn't.

 
By Al Koholik (al_kohol) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 5:46 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
APPARENTLY NOT EVERYTHING IN TEXAS IS BIGGER.. INCLUDING YOUR . LEAVE YOUR GUNS AT HOME YOU PARA FREAKS.
 
By fuel (fuel) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 6:06 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Wow, such logical, mature arguments from someone so aptly named Al Koholik.
 
By Matt Anderson (xaggie) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 6:26 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I totally agree with Fuel, Why should an off duty police officer be allowed to carry and not a properly trained civilian?
 
By Barry (barry) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 6:51 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
[People having CCW’s I’m still on the fence about.]

This is going to sound somewhat attacking, A.P.. trust me, I don't mean it that way.

I'm a bit surprised that you're on the fence about CCW's. Why should you be able to carry off duty and the average citizen is not? I find it ironic that the police are not obligated to protect the average citizen and when we take measures to protect ourselves, the police get worried(perhaps not you, but I've met a number that are). How can we rely on the police when they have no obligation? 'To serve and protect' is grossly mis-leading. no obligation aside, There is absolutely no way the police *can* protect the citizens given the ratio of police/residents. The departments duty is to protect society as a whole by deterrence and by systematically patrolling, detecting and apprehending criminals ***after the occurrence of crimes***. The department or its officers have no duty to protect the average citizen, only society as a whole. Guess who's going to take care of me? yeah, me.

What's more?! A citizen doesn't even have any leverage enforcing the mis-leading 'to serve and protect' if the department decides for whatever reason that they don't want to take a call, no matter how much of an emergency it is they're not obligated to take it and there's nothing the individual can do. Complain? heh
California's Government Code, Sections 821, 845, and 846 which state, in part: "Neither a public entity or a public employee may be sued for failure to provide adequate police protection or service, failure to prevent the commission of crimes and failure to apprehend criminals."

My question is, who is the average citizen to rely upon? The thinly spread officers who have no civil duty(according to the law) to protect the individual? The only time the police are obligated to protect the individual is when the individual is in police custody

So my question is, as a police officer how can you be against a person holding a CCW to protect himself since nobody else can/will? Is the paid life of a police officer worth more then the citizens they're 'sworn' to protect?

B-




 
By shane (auto) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 8:45 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
AP so nice to question my intelligence and competence to carry a gun. I shoot with the best, where did your Precision Rifle Team finish at Sniper's Paradise? Have you been to Thunder Ranch, or the best firearms training classses? I have. I only wish at your elite level I could make the decision of which citizens are so far away from achieving. I will bet that my Wilson .45 and PSS 300 win mag present a better picture than you present. your so cool, mu civilain life is so worthless.
 
By Barry (barry) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 8:48 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Shane, I question your intelligence.. why in the world didn't you get the 700 PSS in a .308?

Seriously though, we should keep this civil.

 
By Justin Lamoureux (lives2wake) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 9:19 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
You people are crazy?!
 
By A. P. (bigdad) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:07 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Shane- I wasn’t attacking your intelligence for carrying a gun. Your “doses of reality” examples seemed to me to be preventable. Trust me, I too have made mistakes and try to learn from them. I am sure you are a better shot then me. To be honest I’m not into guns that much. I have my H&K MP-5 and my duty weapon that I train with every other month but other than that I don’t shoot that much. I’m accurate but far from being competitive in IPSC.

But to answer many of your questions why I have concerns with people carrying weapons goes beyond training. You may be able to shoot with great accuracy but no training prepares you for real world situations. The range is a sterile safe environment (it has to be). But you never know how a person reacts until they are faced with fear. In fact there is someone on our SWAT team who is probably one of the best shooters on the team. But I don’t feel comfortable doing entries with him because he can’t make quick decisions. Being able to think quickly on your feet is more important then shooting accurately. This doesn’t come from a training class you took at Blackwater. Looking back at my career I was a terrible cop in my first few years. I’m lucky I didn’t get hurt. But after dealing with hard core criminals on a daily basis and making numerous of dangerous entries into a house and taking people down who are bigger and badder then me….well I feel more confident about my ability to be able make the right decision quickly. There is so much that comes with experience. Reading people, observing their hands, bulges in pockets, demeanor, tactics, counter tactics, distractions, sound judgment, and quick reactions. These are all qualities that come from doing this on a daily basis not in a class you took. I have been faced with numerous incidents where I had to make a shoot / no shoot decision in a split second. Some of them I would have been totally justified but because I saw something, or felt something wasn’t right, I decided not to shoot and handled it a different way. Those observations and confidence come from dealing with these criminals every day. I can’t say the average citizen could do that.

Being a police officer you do become jaded. I have been in fights with suspects in the middle of the street by myself and having normal “citizens” just sitting their watching like it’s a movie. You come to believe the only people you can trust and rely on are other officers. For all I know, Shane and Barry you may be as tactically sound as my partners whom I trust with my life. But until you get a badge and go through all the training I have been through and experience the same things I have, it’s hard for me to trust you with a gun. The problem is I don’t know you and when I hear people advocating their right to carry a gun my mind drifts to all the imbecile security guards I have met who have their “guard card.” I barely trust these people watching my car while I go and do the dirty work. It makes me wonder who is passing out these permits for guns.

Barry- your point for wanting to carry a weapon makes me support your decision to carry a weapon. I can understand your desire to protect your family. The problem lies in how does one decide who is competent enough to carry a weapon and who is not. If too many CCW permits are handed out loosely you are bound to have some idiot shooting for no reason and hiding behind his CCW.

 
By Barry (barry) on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:50 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
[But to answer many of your questions why I have concerns with people carrying weapons goes beyond training. You may be able to shoot with great accuracy but no training prepares you for real world situations.]

Your statement is the truth. It doesn't happen the way in most people think it does. Nobody knows how they'll react until it happens, even then they'll most likely react differently to every situation. The 'tough guy syndrome' is so frustrating to listen to that it almost makes me laugh.... almost. People that believe they can keep their cool in a combat/violent situation are only fooling themselves in most cases... things happen too fast, things tunnel and fear takes over.

[For all I know, Shane and Barry you may be as tactically sound as my partners whom I trust with my life. But until you get a badge and go through all the training I have been through and experience the same things I have, it’s hard for me to trust you with a gun. The problem is I don’t know you and when I hear people advocating their right to carry a gun my mind drifts to all the imbecile security guards I have met who have their “guard card.”]

A.P, I don't claim to be a combat expert with the police background/tactics to back you up in a split second situation. I've been shooting a long time and have trained with some of the best, but I'm a realist and I can't say with certainty how well I'd do.. I will never know until I'm in that situation. Frankly, I hope I never find out.

I've carried for 15 years and in that time I've learned to rely more on my senses then my gun, if I feel even the least bit uncomfy or strange about a situation, I'm gone. I'm all about prevention.

B-

 
By shane (auto) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 5:58 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
AP, I did my first ride along last year, and wow, just the stress of pulling someone over at night for the first time was immense. Tinted windows, 3:00a.m., driving erratically, and a beater of a car in the bad part of town, it was nerve racking mainly because I walked up to the car with the officer, yikes I am now a target. So I agree with the hypothesis that the real thing is different. It is scary, I think most combat experts describe it as fight or flight. I am not a great shot, but I am tactically sound, run on hot ranges, shoot Class 3 weapons, and feel proficient with my weapons. I think if you were a police officer in Texas your attitude towards CHL and citizens would be different. I am not bashing CA, things are just different here.

The .308 .300 debate was tough one, so many pros and cons for each. The .300 was just a little more ballistically superior at longer distances. What I really want is the AI 50 or 338 Lapua.

Back to wakeboarding since this is Wakeworld, not packin.org I come out to Napa at least once every 18 months, I am hoping I can get a ride in the Delta and you will have rack for my PSS.

 
By A. P. (bigdad) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 7:07 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I must admit I am not sure of the process involved to get a CHL/CCW. I know at least in California you have to get permission from a police chief or sheriff but after that I'm not sure how much training is required.

However here in California I know the process for being a police officer is long and extensive. It averages 4-6 months for the application process alone. This includes a written test followed by an oral interview and a physical agility test. This weeds out 75% of the applicants. The few remaining go on to an thorough background check that can take several weeks. Any questionable incidents in your history and you are out. Next follows a thorough medical exam and a extensive psychological testing to verify your fitness for duty.

The select few get hired and go to a 26 week police academy. A rigorous boot camp style learning center that combines physical training, defense tactics, firearms and academics. 1/3 -1/4 of the class get excused from the academy. Those who complete the academy move on to 4 week “in house” training at the police department where they learn more about policies and procedures. Next you must complete a 16 – 20 week Field Training Program where the recruit is paired with a senior police officer who “shows you the ropes”. Perhaps 10% don’t make it through the FTO program. All in all you are looking at over a year and a half before a police officer is out on his own.

The training doesn’t stop there. Every month we have one training class on a variety of topics. SWAT team members also train one additional day. Also like I said earlier you have the inherent training coming from doing the job on a daily basis.

Maybe it is an ego thing but I have a hard time supporting the general citizen from carrying a gun. I look back at my training and how long it took me to get where I am and feel that police officers have earned the right to carry a weapon off duty. A citizen who has a CHL/CCW couldn’t possibly have the same training as a police officer. But you should have a right to defend yourself. That is why I am on the fence.

 
By Bob (bob) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 10:33 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
AP you might be right about the average citizen not having the same training BUT that surely also applies to the bad guys that said weapon would be used to attempt to preserve ones self and family from wouldnt it?? How many crimes have police rolled up on and were able to stop compared to how many they just investigated the aftermath of??
 
By Millerman (millerman) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 12:39 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
One of the main problems I often see with people and weapons is the involving with the person in possession of the weapon, whether it is a knife, gun or whatever. There is so much legality and responsibility with a gun it is incredible. Every bullet that is shot, whether it hits the target or not, is the responsibility of the shooter. It looks easy on TV, but shooting at moving people, vehicles, animals, etc, is a lot harder than it looks, especially depending on the surrounding environment. A car is not going to stop just because you shoot the radiator.

Like mentioned earlier, a smart person holding a gun, will not be noticed by others. How many times have you seen the off duty LEO officer with the fanny pack that looks like it could hold a refrigerator? Sometimes, noticeable things like this will actually make you a target if they (the crook), feels they can get you by surprise.

I have heard of many stories of guns getting into the wrong hands. Many crooks have guns because they have stolen them or bought them on the street from someone that legally owned them. Recently in CA, an FBI agent got his MP5 and duty weapon stolen from his car while he worked out at the gym. Another officer got two firearms stolen out of his car as he shopped in the mall. I knew an officer that went to his child’s sporting event and his weapon was stolen out of his car and used by a serial killer to kill two or three people. How would you like to live with that? And these stories are of officers, imagine how many regular citizens get their weapons stolen.

All I am trying to say if you do decide to carry one, on boat or not, be safe and try to have a plan for the day as to what do with your weapon at all times and how to secure it. Also, make sure that you are safe and not going to hurt the people you are trying to protect more than the criminal.

 
By Phil (pumpkin_head) on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 7:01 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I normally cary my handgun on the boat with me for the same reason I carry a fire extinguisher. I don't "live in fear" of needing my gun any more than I live in fear of my boat burning. I really just like to be prepared.

I have a few sensless ramblings to add based on some earlier comments. For those that aren't aware, 34 states have Right to Carry Laws that require the issue of licenses to qualified individuals. Qualification requirements vary from state to state but issuing of a license is in no way discretionary. As of 1996 Texas had 111400 permit holders and Florida had 208089 permit holders as of 1997 just as two examples. I mention this because the argument that people in general will act irresponsibly just doesn't hold water based on these numbers. I just hate it when I hear the "America will turn into Dodge City" argument.

As to the discussion on shooting skills, in most legitimate self defense shootings, the ranges involved are incredibly short, normally 7 yards to point blank. A poor shooter with good frame of mind will almost always outperform a highly trained shooter in a panic at these ranges. Whether this puts the average police officer at an advantage over the average CCL holder is certainly open for debate (but probably a better topic for a CCL board than here).

Pumpkin Head


 
By Nick Beihl (nbeihl) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 6:40 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
well... I must say, I got my license from FL and sometimes I take my gun. If I do take it, I always make sure that there is "positive control" of it. Meaning that when I am going to ski, the wife is incharge of the gun. I never take it if there is going to be anyone on the boat that is going to be drinking or if there is someone that I do not know very well going with us. Anyway... I just picked up this shot gun and it is one of my fav's....


 
By shane (auto) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 7:49 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
as soon as I get the boat out of storage I will have a good pic.
 
By Steve (kneebone) on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 8:52 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Hey Nick,

Why is that Mossberg 12 ga one of your favorites? Is it because it looks cool, or is it because it's one of the most ineffective weapons to bring to a gun fight. (Unless your shooting rifled slugs and have a collapseable stock.) They don't even use those on entry's into buildings anymore. You bring that 12 ga on your boat? Thats the same cheap gun I used to take off of gangbangers in East Salinas. They would buy it from Big 5 for 100 bucks. The baby Glock I like. You can conceal it very easily and take it with you anywhere.

Listen, I'm in favor of citizens being able to protect themselves. BUT!!! I cringe everytime I hear someone leaving a firearm unattended in a truck, car, boat etc. If your gonna pack...it stays with you and only you. Nobody else watches it for you, you don't leave it in a vehicle while you go out on the lake. Just as Millerman stated, when you leav ethat gun in your vehicle and someone steals it, can you live with the consequences of someone being killed with that gun?

I've been boating for 32 years. Mostly at the Delta and Shasta. I have never even remotely been in a situation where I needed a gun. The circumstances of Boat life and Land life are different. I have needed my pistol to defend my family where a gang fight broke out in a pizza parlor in Salinas, but that place in infested with gang activity.

This topic has been beat to a pulp. I think everyone is in agreement:

a) guns and alcohol don't mix.
b) guns and kids are not cool.
c) keep track of your gun.

Aside from that. People are too divided on gun owenership and possession, not to mention whether to bring it ona boat. Sooooo...to each his own...Just be responsible and respect everybody else's boat if you're going on it.




 
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