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By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 9:11 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Jeff has been so very active building boards that I felt like I also had to start a project. This time last year I started a card board surfboard project. That project was just a goof, something I just threw together. The board was very heavy around 25 pounds.

This year Jeff issued a challenge to build the lightest surfboard. I built a balsa wood board for my entry. I designed a grid of balsa stringers and skinned the board with balsa wood.

This new board will be something of a cross between these two alternative materials boards. I値l once again use card board but I値l use a grid of stringers similar to the balsa surfboard.

Here痴 the design:
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By Jeff Walker (surfdad) on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 5:21 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
You go Ed!

Let me ask a few questions. How will you cut the cardboard? I know that when I have cut carboard it collapses close to the cut. What will your selection of adhesive be and why? Then lastly, what are you going to skin it with? Recycle This! used paper bags, right?

I'm confused on the longitudinal stringers, is there one pattern missing? Or am I just not following it?

Cool build, I'm looking forward to following along.

 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 6:41 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Jeff, Last time I cut strips and then shaped them. The strips needed a fair amount of shaping so the cut was a little distant from the final shape. The other thing I did was "paint" the stringers with epoxy before shaping. The epoxy made the strips stiffer.

This time I値l cut the stringers to fairly exact shapes to start with. So, I'll have to be more careful when cutting the cardboard. I'll cut the lateral stringers on my scroll saw. The longitudinal stringers will be too long to cut on the scroll saw. I did cut some of the balsa stringers with my hand held jig saw. I知 not sure that a jig saw will work well on the finer sections.

I skinned last year痴 cardboard surfboard with Kroger痴 shopping bags. This year I plan to skin the top with Pizza Hut pizza delivery boxes. I値l put a layer of fiberglass over the Pizza Hut boxes. I知 going to experiment with rice paper and fiberglass on the bottom. I want the construction to be visible through the bottom.

There will be a center longitudinal stringer and four pairs of matching left and right stringers. On the top view figure above the left stringers are marked 1L, 2L, 3L, 4L and the right stringers are marked 1R, 2R, 3R, and 4R. There痴 a line very close to the edge of the board. That was going to be a stringer, but I dropped it from the design.

On the longitudinal stringer picture I show the center stringer and all of the unique stringers required to build one side. The right side is shown. The center stringer and the 1R stringer are so similar is size that I知 going to cut them to the same shape. I値l revise the shape as needed when I assemble the frame.

Someone (Matt?) mentioned something about bamboo glass. That might be an interesting alternative to fiberglass. Some of the materials guys I know from work are working with products developed from Soybeans. I think there are some epoxy or epoxy like resins derived from soy. Using a soy based epoxy might fit the theme of the board. I値l have to see if I can get some donated resin.

 
By Jeff (fuller313) on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 7:28 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I'm excited to watch again Ed. How much do you think this board will weigh?
 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 8:24 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Much, much less than 25 pounds:-)

The last cardboard surfboard was made from cardboard strips running length wise with only epoxy holding them together. This board will have lateral stringers and so will be much stronger side to side.

I think the interlocking stringers will improve strength from tip to tail as well.

The top layer of cardboard should improve resistance to foot traffic. An overall glass layer should help quite a bit as well. I crushed through the top deck of first cardboard surfboard one the day before Nationals. I had planned to ride it at Nationals. Maybe this one will last for next year.

 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 7:32 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
OK, I finally got a few moments to get started.

I already have plenty of materials thanks for all the material Jeff and the AWSA members. That's Fresh Air Exhaust, Inland Surfer, The Walker Project, Shred Stixx, and Cyber Shapes.

My wife can't wait to see the boxes go.

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The design
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The design and the box
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Looks like one box will do it
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Simple tools needed for cutting the boxes
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Glue the pattern to the box
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Use a straight edge to help keep the cuts clean
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All of the longitudinal stringers are cut
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By Jeff Walker (surfdad) on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 8:53 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I'm loving the build! Now, have you completely cut the long-stringers? Slots and all? Did you print the template on a plotter?
 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 5:31 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Thanks. No, groves have not been cut yet. I'll also do a little cleanup shaping on the drum sander on my drill press. The cuts are pretty accurate as is, the clean up won't take long.

Printed on a plotter. Newer plotters have ink jet heads so plotting is now printing.

 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 8:37 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I finished the longitudinal stringers and lateral stringers #1 through #15. I need to rework one of the longitudinal stringers.

Here are some pictures of the progress.

I was going to cut the lat stringers cut with my scroll saw but the utility knife worked better for me.
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Here's a stack of lat stringers 1 - 15
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I did use the scroll saw to cut the notches
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Cutting four at a time is about 4 times faster
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I pinned the long stringers and cut them two at a time
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I was going to match sand the long stringers with a drum sander - what was I thinking the belt was the right tool
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Fit checking the completed parts
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By Jeff Walker (surfdad) on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 8:45 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Nice progress! I think cardboard is better than wood. :-)
 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 8:50 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
So far this is going better than the balsa project. Knock on wood:-) It looks like I did a pretty good job cutting the lat stringers. I didn't sand them to match, they already do.
 
By Jeff (fuller313) on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 8:51 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Its looking good!
 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 7:14 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
All the lateral stringers have been cut. I'm still short one longitudinal stringer.

Here's how the test fit looks. The #30 lat stringer interferes with the longitudinal stringers. Lat Stringer #29, #28 and a few others need just a little trimming as well. Looks like I could use a little better CAD tool.

Front view
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Side view
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The 2 inch by 2 inch egg create design works like a really big egg create:-)
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By C. R. (crushing76) on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 8:10 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
wow, that's pretty impressive... the see through bottom will almost definitely give it 8-10 inches more air off the lip of the wave!!!

i can't wait to see how it turns out!

 
By Jeff Walker (surfdad) on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 8:25 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
It's gorgeous Ed!
 
By Petr (hawaj) on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 5:38 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Its awesome Ed, I love how eggs fit in the boxes
 
By Petr (hawaj) on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 5:49 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
check out this dude with this tricky transparent carboard longboard construction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29_omkkvxiE

http://www.sheldrake.net/cardboards/build/

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By Petr (hawaj) on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 6:13 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
and some really funny fins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWjdKT22AIE&feature=related

 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 7:42 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Peter, Someone posted this one earlier this year. I think this is one of the most beautiful boards I've seen. I'm humbled when I look at his work.
 
By Petr (hawaj) on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 8:46 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
ED you are rigtht now I remember I saw it here. Its sweet.
 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 4:28 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I spent a little time building some glassing stands.

I got the basic design form Surf Steve's web site.
http://www.surfersteve.com/
http://www.surfersteve.com/stands.htm

The raw materials
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An adjustable hole pattern
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I put feet on the posts to hold them in the bucket better. However the feet were too big.
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I could have cut the feet back but Bending is easier
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After bending
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Now it fits in the bucket
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The supports
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The mostly finished product. I need to add sand to the buckets and some padding on the wood.
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By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 7:39 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I just glued the stringers in place. I'm planning on painting the stringers with polyurethane before skinning. I'll need to order some pizza soon.

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By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 10:30 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I applied a quart of clear polyurethane to the egg crate. The polyurethane should stiffen the cardboard a little and provide some protection from water effects.

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By Jeff Walker (surfdad) on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 11:50 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Is there a reason you brushed instead of spraying the urethane? I like your stands - very nice.
 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 2:10 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I had a can and a brush. I could have used a brush that was less than 2 inches wide. I loaded the brush and saturated the center of the cardboard. Spraying would have been easier.
 
By Mike Eidsmoe (wakeboardchamp43) on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 3:00 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Is there a thread for this contest that you guys were talking about??? Cause im in a materials science class and we are looking for some project ideas and this looks really cool. We have access to some pretty advanced materials as well.
 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 5:02 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Try these

East West Challenge
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/87668/495360.html?1190648787

Comp Sandwich
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/87668/512861.html?1195415989

Light Stick
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/87668/497879.html?1192119812

Vacuum bagging
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/87668/502580.html?1190385464

Metal foams
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/

Comp Balsa Sandwich
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/87668/516681.html?1194099886

If you have access to some interesting composites I bet Jeff would love to discuss these with you.

 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 5:10 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Mike, It would be really cool if several teams built boards and brought them to an American Wakesurf Association competition for official testing. Last year Centurion Boats held a Spring Break wakesurf get together and Competition at Lake Tulloch. That might also be a great occasion to evaluate multiple entries.

I think it would be even more interesting to get multiple schools in a challenge. What do you think? Maybe you could have your professor contact Jeff or myself.

 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 6:21 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
The frame has dried and seems reasonably strong. It only weighs 3 pounds 8 ounces.

I needed material for the top deck so we ordered pizza last night. The surfboard frame is a little wider than the pizza boxes. I think I値l build up the sides of the board with a layer of lawn bags. Then I値l glue the pizza boxes on top.

I致e been planning to cover the bottom of the board with rice paper and then glass over with 6 ounce E-glass. However, I知 getting worried about the strength of only glass on the bottom surface. On the one hand a clear bottom will be cool; on the other hand the utility of the board might be diminished. But how much utility would you expect from a cardboard surfboard?

I also need to add material for the fin boxes. I cut a hand full of cardboard squares and then test fit them. Once cut and test fitted I soaked the squares in polyurethane and set them out to dry.

Pizza boxes for the top deck
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The frame is a few inches wider than the boxes
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Squares for the fin boxes
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Test fitting the squares
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By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 7:13 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Building the frame was relatively easy. This evening I lightly sanded the frame with an orbital sander. I wanted to make the frame a little more even before applying the skin.

I'm starting to apply the skin. I'm still going to put one pizza box on the top. The pizza box doesn't completely cover the entire surface. I need something to cover the outer edges of the board. I知 also concerned about skinning the nose and tail. I decided to wrap rice paper along the edges. I値l also apply rice paper to the nose and tail. The pizza box will overlap the rice paper.

I started skinning by wrapping rice paper along the sides. I applied epoxy on the top of the frame with a small paint brush. Then I laid the rice paper on top and rubbed the paper to the tacky frame. When the epoxy dries I値l flip the board over, trim the paper, and work on fitting around complex curves.

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By Matt Smedley (smedman) on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 9:58 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
ed - you are making me hungry with those pizza boxes!

Quote from Ed above:
Someone (Matt?) mentioned something about bamboo glass. That might be an interesting alternative to fiberglass. Some of the materials guys I know from work are working with products developed from Soybeans. I think there are some epoxy or epoxy like resins derived from soy. Using a soy based epoxy might fit the theme of the board. Iソスll have to see if I can get some donated resin.

can't wait to see the lamination! any word on the resin? you might check with the guy from Greenlight Surf Supply (the guy that sells the bamboo fiberglass) - maybe he has some ideas as he is all about being "green" (which i completely respect).

 
By Petr (hawaj) on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 11:24 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
yep I am for bamboo fiber
 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 8:30 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I did check about soy resins. Apparently they are really slow reacting, I'll probably go traditional with the resin.

I'll have to contact Greenlight.

 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 12:36 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I filled the fin box grid with squares and placed a few squares along the perimeter.

Then I cut the rice paper to fit and applied epoxy one side to the bottom.

Filled in the fin box grid
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Filled in some weak points at the perimeter
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The rice paper meets right at the center line
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Not enough at the nose, that will require a patch
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Rice paper applied to one side
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The corners aren't too smooth. I hope I can clean this up, maybe the glass step will help
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By Ronnie Thompson (wakemetoday) on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 6:07 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
What kind of material are you using for the skins?
 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 6:41 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Ronnie, I'm using, cardboard, rice paper, and fiber glass. I might use bamboo glass instead of fiber glass.

The top deck will be pizza hut boxes. I've wrapped most of the board in rice paper. I'm using rice paper to attempt to keep resin from dripping and forming droplets I'll cover the pizza hut boxes and rice paper with glass.

I just put the second half of the rice paper on. This time I first applied epoxy to the rails but then I followed up by applying the remaining epoxy to the outside of the rice paper. The two sided approach appears to be more effective.
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By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 2:50 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I've been away for a bit and finally had a change to get back to the project. This is a two steps forward and one step back update.

I applied the rice paper in four steps: 1) top-left, 2) top right, 3) bottom-left, and 4) bottom right. As I applied the rice paper I modified the process a little. The top left, the first application, didn't adhere well to the cardboard matrix. In fact that's probably a general problem with the egg-create design. There's not enough surface area to attach the skin to.

So, I removed the top left section and reapplied. I also applied rice paper to the nose, tail and a midsection that may be partly exposed beneath the pizza boxes.

I知 having trouble lapping the nose and tail from the top side to the bottom edge. The rice paper doesn稚 want to bend and there痴 not enough surface area for the paper to stick to. The nose is worse than the tail.

I may have to do something different with the nose. The egg-create edges are too jagged to support the rice paper. I知 thinking of adding a thin card board layer to the bottom and top of the nose. I may have to vacuum bag to hold the card board in place with the glue dries. I was planning on vacuum bagging the pizza boxes on tomorrow.

Removed the bad section
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Adding nose, tail, and mid top sections
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Ready to add a new side
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New side
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By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 2:52 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I've been away for a bit and finally had a change to get back to the project. This is a two steps forward and one step back update.

I applied the rice paper in four steps: 1) top-left, 2) top right, 3) bottom-left, and 4) bottom right. As I applied the rice paper I modified the process a little. The top left, the first application, didn't adhere well to the cardboard matrix. In fact that's probably a general problem with the egg-create design. There's not enough surface area to attach the skin to.

So, I removed the top left section and reapplied. I also applied rice paper to the nose, tail and a midsection that may be partly exposed beneath the pizza boxes.

I知 having trouble lapping the nose and tail from the top side to the bottom edge. The rice paper doesn稚 want to bend and there痴 not enough surface area for the paper to stick to. The nose is worse than the tail.

I may have to do something different with the nose. The egg-create edges are too jagged to support the rice paper. I知 thinking of adding a thin card board layer to the bottom and top of the nose. I may have to vacuum bag to hold the card board in place with the glue dries. I was planning on vacuum bagging the pizza boxes on tomorrow.

Removed the bad section
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Adding nose, tail, and mid top sections
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Ready to add a new side
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New side
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By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 8:38 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I知 ready to apply the top pizza box skin. The pizza boxes have curled up and won稚 easily conform to the rounded shape of the top of the surf board. I could put weight over the pizza boxes but that might produce spotty results. Last year I applied the shopping bag skin with a poor man痴 vacuum bag. I知 repeating that this year with one slight improvement. Last year I used some plastic sheeting, caulk, my shop vac, and some drilled pvc pipe. The drilled PVC pipe allows the shop vac to pull a vacuum any where the pipe is. I drilled holes about every foot to make sure I could draw down from as much of the bag as possible. This year痴 improvement is placing left over bubble wrap on the bottom. My thinking is that, like the drilled PVC pipe, the bubble wrap will help route air out of the bag.

I also cut a piece of cardboard for the bottom nose of the board. I didn't have enough epoxy in the batch that I made for the top so I didn稚 included the new nose bottom in this lay up.

My new nose
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Pizza boxes warped and won't stay flat
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Bubble wrap on the bottom of the vacuum bag
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Board, bubble wrap, and piping in place
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Drawing a vacuum with the shop vac
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(Message edited by Bigshow on December 02, 2007)

 
By Jeff Walker (surfdad) on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 10:06 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I'm loving the bagging! Fun build Ed.
 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 11:47 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
The pizza skin look like it went on great.

However, the vacuum was a little tough on the rice paper. In one place the rice paper blew out all together. The rice paper on the rails is a little crushed and wrinkled.

I'm re-bagging to put cardboard on the bottom of the nose.
Pizza skin is on
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Rice paper blow out
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Rails are wrinkled
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By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 11:57 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I'll need to clean up some of the rice paper damage and tweak the cardboard at the nose. After that and as soon as my Fiberglass Supply order is delivered I'm ready to begin glassing.

Remember the rice paper is only on the board to keep the resin from dripping into the body of the board.

I'm going to place a Kokopeli figure in the center blank pizza box.

Does art-on-rice-paper go over or under fiberglass.

 
By Jeff Walker (surfdad) on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 12:17 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
You can do both. Typically folks put the logo laminates under glass, unless you are going to do a tinted resin, then it would be under a final clear hot/gloss coat.
 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 7:43 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
It's been too cold to apply more skin to the board outside so I brought it inside and used Gorilla Glue to put cardboard on part of the sides.

I'm back to may balsa techniques and clamps.
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By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 6:00 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
It got over 65 today so I decided to vacuum back Pizza Hut skins on the bottom of the board. Building up the rails looks to be a little challenging, I guess I didn't think that through well. I made a few tail cutouts and another nose cutout and put them in with the pizza Hut Boxes.

Looking back at what Jeff has been doing I think I should have joined the Pizza Hut boxes before applying them. I also should have made a complete sheet and cut it to fit, again like Jeff did with the w.balsa.

I should have built up more solid rails, one that I could shape. Maybe next year:-)

Nose and tail cutouts
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The bottom skin
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Vacuum bagging the bottom skin
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By Jeff Walker (surfdad) on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 6:26 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
Hey Ed,

I don't have any w.balsa, butg I see to have TONS of e.balsa.

I'm not following what what you did on this step. I can see that you are applying the skin, but...I'm seeing voids on parts of the rails and the nose and tail pieces are to minimize resin absorption?

 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 6:52 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
There are open spaces on the rails that need to be filled in. That's part of my rail problem. I still need to fill in those sections. I applied the skin before filling in those section since the weather is so much warmer today.

Recall that I was going to only skin the bottom with rice paper and glass. However, I think the combination will be too weak. So weak that it will very likely punch through and let water in. I do want this board to be readable but I'm sure it won't be the best out there. I definite step up over last year's cardboard surfboard.

After reading Essential Surfing I'm starting to get the idea that hollow boards have been tried and they are problematic. Honeycomb boards have apparently been tried. I do have at least one goof-ball hollow board idea I値l have to try some time.

 
By bryan lionel (lionel) on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 7:32 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
That's awesome Ed!!
 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 8:17 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
This is getting ugly. The top skin vacuum bagged on nicely. However the bottom isn't cooperating. The front box is peeling off. I'm putting my ballast bags on top over night to keep the pieces under compression.

The edges, nose and tail are just ugly.

Unfinished edges
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I'll trim the top nose back
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The lid didn't stick
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Hope this works
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By Jeff Walker (surfdad) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 4:49 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
Ok, now I'm on board. I like the Pizza Hut logo :-) How long did you bag it? I am leaving all of my pulls for 8 hours, basically overnight.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that everything locked down at night.

 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 9:44 am:    Edit Post Delete Post
I bagged for about 2 1/2 hours. It was getting late and I didn't want to sleep with the vacuum cleaner running all night. I don't have the set up you have. The weights helped but the front edge looks like it's not completely down. I'll try some poly-U glue on it tonight.
 
By Edward J. Sullivan (bigshow) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 7:07 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
I worked on the nose and tail a little today.

My shaping tools
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Shaping the tail
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cutting the skin for overlay and lapping
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Glued and taped nose
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Fully taped
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Trimming the tail
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a little shaping on the tail
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A new edge note I cut slits every inch
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Fully taped tail
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By Jeff Walker (surfdad) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 - 4:36 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
That's a bunch of blue painters tape! Hey Ed, may I ask a favor...you and I are so bad, our threads are hugely picture heavy...at the office I just have DSL and it took AGES for all the pictures to load...would you mind your next update going into a fresh thread? I wonder if other have the same issues?
 
By Kevin McGuirk (ktmwakeboarder) on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 4:47 pm:    Edit Post Delete Post
this is all so impressive
 
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