|So I know there are a million threads about this trick but I wanted to talk specifically about my situation. I used to do these over rollers and such many, many years ago but then got busted up really bad taking them w2w...like busted ribs, eardrums, etc. I hadn't tried them for 5+ years until the end of last summer. Finally, on my last hit of 2006 I landed one w2w! |
So I am still working on getting over my fear of that trick, but so far this year I've tried maybe 10 without any hard crashes. I haven't landed any yet but have been very close with just missing the handle pass. So now I just need that little thought or thing to focus on to get them consistent.
So my edge in is VERY light. I get out wide enough where I can just drift in with hardly any edge but still get w2w. I also come in more seated and with the handle much tighter than normal jumps or inverts. I wouldn't say the handle is touching my stomach but my elbows are definitely glued at my sides. I stand very tall at the peak getting a lot of straight up pop and then make a conscious pause before pulling the handle to my back hip to spin. (That was my fear of the trick before because I wouldn't have the handle in tight and would spin off the wake causing me to get pulled over backwards during the spin and eating it badly.) So I spin fine but just don't get the handle in hard enough to reach it with my other hand. I land perfectly but with no handle. I really try to think about pulling with 2 hands and not letting go until I have to with my front hand.
So the easy answer is to pull harder but I was looking for more detail on how tight you keep the handle on approach, on take off, and then when you pull for the pass. I work out and feel that I should be strong enough to pull in hard enough to get the pass but it just isn't there. I don't have any problems pulling in for my TS 3's so I thought it might have been some technique issues. Hopefully I can get some video soon. I watch videos of these skinny kids pulling in with just one hand and getting the pass and I don't understand that since there is so much line tension even on an easy edge.
|By the way, that one HS 3 was caught on video by my buddy if it helps to see my form. It might not be worth waiting for it, but if you can wait for the download, the trick is at 4:04 of the video.|
|jeff where did you hear the handle needed to be tight? in fact i keep the handle out a little further than a normal w2w jump. i do this because it allows more of a jerk on the rope. everything you are doing sounds great. come in seated as you are have the rope further from your body and you wont need to pull any harder b/c you are pulling much longer(time wise) on the rope. i learned all my 3 riding at about 16 mph no ballast. once i got them nailed i sped the boat up a mph or so and still just went one wake. then i brought the boat up to riding speed still going one wake. and slowly started to add more pop until i was going w2w. i did this over the course of a winter and it took me about 4-5 months to get it them dialed. (but i also learned fs and bs 3's, ts 3s, bs 180's and ts bs 180's) be patient or this trick will scare you off quick. take your time, the falls wont hurt. |
(Message edited by alanp on March 26, 2007)
|I knew you would come through Alan! Thanks...and it's Jarret BTW. |
I've just seen videos of people keeping the handle in tight and I feel like I get pulled over if I don't keep it in close from the beginning. Maybe you are right though in that I'm having trouble spinning because the handle is already in close. I'll try a couple with the handle out a little bit. It does wear you out to cut in with the handle really close to your waist.
|sorry about the name. |
post the video if you get a chance id like to take a look.
|Oops, I totally forgot to post it! Thanks. |
4:04 of the video.
|i checked the video, definately keep the handle much further from your body. when i approach the wake the handle is out past my knees with just a slight bend in my arms|
|Thanks Alan. I'll give that a try next time out and report back with my findings.|
|Alan - I got to ride one set on Sunday and tried a few HS 3's. I took your advice and didn't keep the handle in as close on my approach. This was really nice since it didn't wear me out or take as much effort as my previous form did. So I felt like I was spinning them really well and the handle was close...but I was just missing the pass. At this point I'm not sure if there is anything left for me to do other than pull harder and keep the rope in tighter once I initiate the spin. I was landing perfectly on the downside of the other wake but just missed the pass by a couple of inches...or so it felt. Hopefully I'll get to try more soon and I'll report back then.|
|jarret-slow the boat down to about 16 mph and try a couple one wake 3's from outside to inside.|
|Ok, I'll try that next time out. Thanks.|
|Eubanks, I had a friend finally stick this trick with a tip from Gerry Nunn. On the handle, slide both hands on the handle butted against one another down on one side of the handle closest to your body during the spin. This will allow you a little more control and strength to keep that handle in close and to the small of your back.|
|That video is awesome. I can't wait to land a 3 this summer now...|
|UPDATE: I finally landed my 2nd HS FS 3 this week! The first one was the last set of last year. I had tried a few this year but could just never get the handle and then got worked really hard a few weeks ago. So this week I rode and tried one...good rotation but couldn't reach the handle. I ask Gene in the boat what I should have done differently and he just told me to really focus on the handle pass...I knew this but just never put it together. Well, the 2nd attempt I stuck it clean! |
So before I was pop, pulling, and trying to pass but I was turning my head to start spinning during the passing portion. My 2nd attempt I just pulled and was reaching around for the pass even before I felt like I had spun the 1st 180. It is as everyone says, once you have the handle the rest of the trick is cake.
|Eubanks, freaking great video! Teach me master.|
|Great motivation. |
Eubanks - can you offer any advice here: I can do fs 3's off rollers pretty consistently (maybe 8 out of 10 or so), but have a serious mindblock on trying them w2w. Here's why - the only time I've tried it w2w I went too big and spun the trick off the wake - I ended up rupturing my eardrum. So to say I'm seriously mental blocked is an understatement.
I keep telling myself that if I can do a quick 3 off a roller, I should have PLENTY of time to do them wake to wake. My riding is much more in control now, but I'm still stuck. Any tips?
|David - I used to be just like you in that I could do them most of the time off rollers but w2w was a different story. The line tension is just not as bad traveling straight hitting rollers but much harder when traveling across the boat. I actually got worked on these a lot (including a busted eardrum) and didn't try them for years until the end of last season. |
The biggest thing you need to do is not think "quick" but just really slow everything down. I know we always hear pop, pull, pass but the biggest thing is waiting a long time before the pull AFTER the pop. That is what did it for me and gave me confidence. Because even if I wasn't getting the handle, if I waited until I left the wake to spin, I would at least get all the way around and not get worked.
So I had been getting close like that but still missing the handle. I finally just really slowed the spin down and never released my front hand (nor started turning my head into the spin) until I had that handle pulled in tight to my rear hip. Once you have the handle pass the rest of the trick just comes around.
I landed 2 more Saturday (so 4 total now) and the times I missed the handle were when I was rushing the pass and didn't make sure to get the handle all the way into my hips first. I was at least waiting to spin though so I would still land them and coast away instead of getting worked out the front. Oh, and just use a drift edge with a more knee bent approach.
|awesome. thanks for the tips.|
|eubanks that video got me so stoked to ride, i dont know what it was about it but wow! sucks that im not going out till thursday now. that was a really good video, and congrats on the 3's, i still cant get them. i gave up and started trying back 1's cause i think it was a mental thing after trying like 100 of them.|
|wow Eubanks |
I have been in a funk
fear has set in from some hard falls....ts360 attempts
I almost dread riding.....wondering if the learning curve is better left to the young guys
but that video....fantastic!
I'm ready to
1) download some Coldplay!
2) put on the "helmet of courage" and give things another try
|Thanks David. My buddy Jerram actually did the video and editing. It came out nicely. |
So I've only been out a few times since my last update but haven't landed any more 3's. I got the handle twice on Saturday but couldn't ride them out, and that was the first times I've ever got the handle but not landed. I got worked pretty hard on a couple and this trick is still in my head...because I know if I don't throw them correctly I'm really going to get worked going out the front.
So this past weekend I was waiting to spin but I think I was pulling the handle in right off the wake. Before I think I had success in popping and then almost waiting until I was on the way down to start pulling and spinning. I just don't understand why I have to wait so long. I watch videos and see tons of people with so much slack off the wake and they have already released their front hand off the handle right off the wake. If I do that I will get pulled forward every time and get wrecked hard.
I'm not sure what I'm still missing to get this thing consistent. I've started playing with my approach and maybe I can do something different there. I start out really wide and just drift in fast enough to clear both wakes. My upper body position is where I've been playing with. I'm squatted down but sometimes my chest is forward and sometimes my chest is upright. I'm not sure which is the better position.
I thought once I landed a few that it would just click and I would be nailing them every time. That hasn't been the case yet.
|Eubanks - I haven't tried any of these yet basically because I'm scared (lol) - specifically, I'm worried about not waiting and getting pulled off axis, or waiting too long, not making it around, and eating some serious you know what. |
What I've decided that is helping me visualize this trick and get the timing right - and this may help you too - is that I'm going to go off the wake, go for a quick nose or slob grab with my left hand, and then pull hard and start looking left as I rotate.
I feel like the quick grab (or even slap) will help get me into the right position for the proper execution of the fs 3. Not if this will help you - I'll let you know if it helps me...I'm supposed to get a couple of sets this afternoon and if I'm feeling it, I'll give it a couple of tries.
I know you said it's a little different, but I can't help but to keep thinking every time I do a fs 3 off a d-up roller, taking it wake to wake can't be that much harder since you have so much more time in the air...damn I'm really mind-f'ing myself with this.
|One thing I need to do better is PITCH OVER FIRST. I think I'm realizing that if the nose of board is still higher than the tail when I begin my spin I seem to get pulled out the front. Maybe this is just a check point to know that I've waited to pull...and that my board is parallel to the water. |
David - The thing that was helped me land my four was not turning my head and not even thinking about spinning. I almost don't even do a 180 or turn my head into the spin until I've pulled the handle into my rear hip and I'm ready to reach around for it. It is true that if you get the handle you will land these the majority of the time.
Under-rotating is not really a problem or cause of bad crashes. Not waiting until you've left the wake and are balanced in the air is what is going to make you wreck.
Practice some nice big floaty HS 180's where you really yank the handle at the peak of your jump with BOTH hands in order to do your rotation. After a few then give the 3 a go with the same approach and handle mechanics.
Let us know how it goes. Good luck!
|jarret see my first post!!! |
"i learned all my 3s riding at about 16 mph no ballast"
trust me it works.
|Alan - how hard of a cut were you taking into the wake when you were doing spins at 16 mph? I know you can't edge like mad at 16 mph anyways, but any info on this would help...|
|By the way Eubanks - I rode yesterday but didn't have the balls to try any 3's. I did a couple of bs 180s, but they basically turned out like all of my backside 180 attempts. (see link) |
|david you(i) take the same cut that you(i) would riding at 20+. EASY!!!! i take a super squatted (knees bent about 90 degrees) approach on an ollie edge. rope extended out near my knees. at 16 mph your not going to go wake to wake. just go one wake(outside to inside) once comfortable at this take a little harder edge at 16 and spin the trick. do this to prepare for increased speeds which equal increased rope tension. then speed the boat up slowly still going just one wake until you can spin them at riding speed (one wake) then start adding edge until you are going w2w!! simple and pain free boys. also decreases the fear big time!!! i got hammered hard trying these at full speed, wake to wake. this takes a little longer but you'll learn them and they will be solid. i threw hundreds of these literally before even going wake to wake.|
|I am going to try it Alan |
I too have gotten hammered...and was even considering giving in to defeat
you have me motivated to keep on truckin
|.....I too got hammered getting off axis etc.....until I discovered the easy wake to wake jump ollie style with bent knees. What this does is pretty much guarantee a balanced wake jump...and then you can spin all you want even if you dont go around you can correct on the landing like a surface 360....Its all about mastering (at first) that balanced wakejump.|
my heelside jumps are level most of the time
what is your secret to the balanced jump?
olie off the rear foot....I guess?
|no dont ollie period. use the wake to get your pop. use and ollie edge which i and david described as super bent knees. put equal weight on both feet. dont get to heady about these, i.e. looking for certian angles and foot weighting and balance. DO work on an ollie edge. once you can do this correct (without even spinning the 3) all the balancing and weighting will come naturally. i break everything down when learning a trick. even to the point of just learing the ollie edge, with the correct handle positioning(near knees). and practice just jumping(not ollieing from outside to inside one wake) once you are ready to go wake to wake you wont make much of a change just cut out a little further and the speed you generate from being farther out(not cutting harder) will get you wake to wake. get out there and learn them cliff!!! report back|
|Hey Alan, I was going to start another post (maybe I will if you read this), but can you give any tips on some of the basic inverts from your point of view? More specifically, the tantrum, ts front, and scarecrow? Your point of view is quite refreshing and seems to offer some different insight than I've read in a while... |
|Nice BS 180 David. Have you been landing those? I remember watching that video before. They look really nice. |
What kind of tips to you want on basic inverts and maybe I can help as well. Have you landed (or tried) any backrolls or tantrums?
|I still haven't landed the bs 180. I tried a couple on Tuesday and it seems like I'm too back foot heavy on landing to ride them out. I'm practicing them inside out now and trying to get a feel for a more balanced landing. |
I've tried a couple of tantrums (a few years ago when I was fearless, before I suffered any injuries!) and have tried about 100 backrolls. I've even tried a couple of hs front flips and a ts front. Except for the backroll, I didn't know where I was on any of these once I was in the air. Since then, I've taken some trampoline lessons and have a good idea of how to front flip and back flip on a trampoline, and because I feel I understand the technique on tantrums and ts fronts, I think I could nail them both.
I guess what I'm looking for is a little known tip that helped you or anyone land a certain invert. Like Alan talked above about slowing the boat down to 16 mph to learn 5 different spins... For instance, someone locally said that they learned tantrums on a wakeskate first, then they took it to the wake and let go of the handle at the base of the wake a few times to get the feel of the flip. This helped them land it on the first few tries and without any injury. You get the point.
I haven't tried a backroll in about a year. I fell on so many of them that I just decided to get fundamentally stronger on grabs, 180s, and switch riding comfort. I think doing this has probably served me well in my overall riding, and I'm hoping to break out with a couple of spins and inverts before it starts getting cooler.
(Message edited by tparider on August 31, 2007)
|I wouldn't do the wakeskate or letting go thing for learning the tantrum. Letting go of the rope is really going to creat some bad habits. And doing them on the skate I think just isn't necessary. |
Now that you have gotten more comfortable with your fundamentals I would go back to the backroll. I think it' the easiest invert and the easiest one to get consistent. Plus, I see a ton less injuries from backrolls than other basic inverts.
How were you falling before? Tell me about your approach. With a good progressive edge and the ability to stand tall at the wake you should be able to land these soon IMO. I'm not sure how fast you ride but pull your rope all the way in and slow down 1 mph or so.
|also how were you doing your backroll mexican or progressive. |
david you mentioned you wanted to have a couple of spins and inverts by years end. if it were i, id focus my attention on trying to learn just one thing by the years end. if you do learn it then, move on to something else. otherwise your focusing youre attention on to many things imo.
when im learning or want to learn a trick its all i do 1 trick the whole session(day of riding). i get up, once the boat is up to speed ill throw it, fall. get back up and repeat. only when i stop trying is when im hurting(i often get tendonitis in my biceps).
ive ridden with alot of people that are "trying to learn" tricks but do a bunch of other crap (jumps etc) before even attempting what they want to learn. i suppose its just different mentalities. i like to learn stuff, stomping something new is what drives me to continue and gets me amped to go to the lake. busy weekends when i just ride and dont get to work on anything, i get pretty bored.
but thats me, others enjoy just riding around. i think those that just like to ride around dont progress very quickly either.
post a short video if you get a chance of your riding. i'd like to know if there are other parts of your riding that need a little clean up before working on spins and inverts.
i think its a personal preference for learning the tantrum or backroll first. i learned the backroll because it was way more natural to me than the tantrum. the tantrum was the second invert i learned.
|I've been meaning to get some new video of my riding, so I'll take the mini-dv cam out tomorrow and get my wife to shoot some film. I think my fundamentals are pretty sound and I believe I'm ready to become an intermediate rider - 5 seasons as a beginner is quite enough!! |
I found an old backroll video that I posted on wakepics a while back - I haven't tried backrolls in about a year, but I basically do the exact same thing on every one I throw (see video). I think I have always taken them more out than up, and I need to take that 8 foot cut to make sure I'm on edge, take it straight up, and drop out of the sky for the landing. I always seem(ed) to land almost perfectly but then my body just kept going - couldn't stop the rotation - and then of course a crash followed. I don't think I really ever knew where I was until I was about to hit the water.
Here's a backroll vid from a looong time ago - this should answer your questions about my edging, approach, and such:
Here's a vid of a fs 3 off a roller just for kicks:
(Message edited by tparider on August 31, 2007)
|I've been working on consistent wake jumps w/ grabs to get more consistent w/ the 3 and thought I'd offer this up for critique. Is this about the stance I need to be in off the wake? Or am I too heavy on the back foot?|
|i think its good, ur edgeing through the wake for sure and thats a very good thing|
|Alan - I just took a little video from today's session (with a camera, not a camcorder). It's a little rough looking quality-wise, but I'll edit the clips together into a few short segments and put it on Wakepics. |
fyi - I tried a couple of bs 180s today and yesterday as well, and got pulled out the back on my attempts. I figured out that I'm not pulling enough on these in addition to not having enough weight on my front foot. I'm thinking "ollie" when I do it instead of "wakejump," and I'm sure that's what's causing me to get lazy on the pull on them. Anyways, video to come...
|david are you doing the bs 180's one wake? and at a slower speed?|
|no, the ones I tried were at full speed and wake to wake. |
Haven't gotten a chance to try the 16 mph thing yet. Waiting to go out on my boat so I don't have to "practice" too much with a bunch of people on someone's boat other than my own...
|i tried some of these this weekend. the first one i ever tried i busted my eardrum. i went at about 20 mph and went outside in. i didn't land any i could get all the way around(including a 540 on a extra hard pull) but i missed the handle. i think my problem is not pulling with both hands. but if you are haveing problems with the mental part of this trick, slow the boat down and do them outside in, it helps alot. i was scared out of my mind after i busted my ear but know i can't wait to land one.|
|Alan - check your yahoo. I'm sending you a link.|
|Well crap, today I'm left feeling frustrated as I feel I'm degressing in my progression with this HS FS 3. |
I haven't been riding much this past few weeks, but as noted in my earlier post I landed about 3-4 of these in one week's time about a month ago. Included in those was my 2nd one ever.
So this weekend I got to ride a few sets in decent water. I did switch from a 3DS to a Transcend so some of the time I spent trying to get used to the new board. In the past weeks my attempts had been really good and even the ones I was landing I would usually land on my board and skid out. Well, this weekend I just couldn't get the pull on the handle for some reason. A lot of jumps I wasn't committing to the spin and was rotating back to normall after spinning 90 degrees and realizing I wasn't going to make it around. The few times I do go for it I got pulled out the front and worked very, very hard. I only got the handle once but didn't pull that one off.
I guess I'm just still confusing myself on when to pull the handle. So many pull right off the wake but when I do that I get pulled forward every time. I spin with a fairly tall position so maybe I need to suck my knees up before I spin. Who knows, maybe I just need to start over and do as Alan says and learn these 1 wake at 17-18 mph. Suck.
|I hear ya man!!! I'm back to square one after having stuck these consecutively early this year. For me, I think it's mental. But lately, I've doing backrolls now when I try to get some consistent W2W jumps to prepare for a 360 attempt, I'm out of control, so I haven't even tried it. |
Here's the thing, my 180 grabs are huge (if I can say that), but whenever I set up for a 3, all my pop is gone and I'm barely going wake to wake.
I'll get some video on Wednesday, but I'm w/ you. I'm slowing the boat down and going 1wake to get my b*lls back.
|Hey J, I feel your pain. Getting pulled over the front was what kept me away from the HS 3 until just recently. |
I think you've got to be spinning off the wake (toooo early) so you need to wait. What helped me was this....
Do a couple of nose grab HS 180 in a row. Come into the wake knees bent and relaxed trying to get maximim height off the wake just so you can land on the down slope nice and easy. After you've done 2-3 180's just come in with the same cut, same jump etc. Then pull your knees up for the grab and initiate the 180 just as you have been doing. This time though, instead of reaching for the grab, reach down and around for the handle. This will force you to wait. This will also help to not spin so tall (big help for me, :P) Once the handle is in your hand, you've got it, the rope will pull you around.
I know, I know its back to basics. You're just thinking too much about it, its in your head. But trust me, you'll spin smoother and you should be able to mix in that grab. I've been able to grab about 60% so far and I've started working on 5's now.
Hope it helps, it did for me. Just wait like you're going for the grab. Good luck bro
|Thanks Adam! So if you're reaching for the grab (or pretending to) are you just pulling in the handle with one arm? That's one thing that I worry about that I can pull in hard enough to get the handle. That being said I see most people only pull with one arm, and a lot of times they are skinny little kids!! |
Maybe I'll start trying your way. I think I really need to start pitching over more and/or faster. It seems if I start spinning with the nose of the board point upwards that I'll get pulled out the front.
This trick is going to be the death of me!
|Well, in my mind I just pull the handle to my waist and try to lock it in. I pull it in as I reach for the grab and then try to touch my left wrist (goofy foot) to my butt. Sometimes the handle gets pulled out and I miss the pass but I stay on axis and just land without the handle. Most of the time the handle is just there waiting for the pass. |
I think the idea of "pulling" the handle in might be causing you to come off axis. If you think about it.. if you wait for the pop off the wake until you pull, then you yank the handle in, you will just yank yourself off axis. Sometimes you'll pull just right to maintain your axis, but it has to be just perfect.
I try think of spinning "around the rope/handle" instead of using the line tension to initiate the spin.
Try a combination of Alan's technique (slowing down and using just one wake) and what I'm saying and work you're way up. I'm attempting all this with BS 180's and BS 3's. Hope it helps.
Plus, it's not like I know what I'm talking about, hahaha. Just what has worked for me. I'm about to puke watching our Aggies getting slammed by Miami. We always play like crap on national tv. Good luck
|if what you have been doing doesnt work, try something different. i dont think w2w, and/or at full speed is where you should be right now jarret. youre gonna take some nasty falls and totally get mind effed by this trick. my way may take a little bit longer but the falls dont hurt, at all!!! and because of that youre going to build alot of confidence.|
|Thanks guys. I will try these out. I really thought I had it figured out when I landed 3-4 in one week but obviously not. I feel like I'm having to try way to hard for this trick. |
Alan, I agree. I'm going to use these winter months to just work on one wake spins. Who wants to wreck hard anyway when the water is 50 degrees?!